Setup to record classical violin

Chris_IO

New member
Hi,
I would like to record my solo violin playing (mainly classical). What microphone would you recommend? My budget for this would be around 500€.
I don't really know much about audio recording especially acoustic, a while ago I bought the Focusrite scarlett solo audio interface to record some electrical guitar, but that's it.
What would you recommend? I watched some reviews and heard that the SE Electronics VR2 is good for this purpose?
Thanks in advance!
 
Never done it but I have heard that violins are tricky things to record well? A ribbon microphone is however a massive step in the right direction. The next thing you need is a great room!

Dave.
 
I've always just used a single SDC - never a ribbon, though I suppose it might work, and that particular model is supposed to have active electronics that give it more HF content than a typical ribbon.

The mic that was my "go-to" was an Audio-Technica AT4051a. There are probably others, but that should be around your budget - well, the current model is the AT4051b, which is (if you ask A-T, I expect) an improved model, but I have not used one of those. I got my AT4051a used, and maybe that's a possibility if you have patience. There are lots of SDCs, however.
 
A few things to consider. Recording solo violin? Just the violin? No accompaniment?

There are a few things to consider. First thing and the most critical one is what the violin sounds like, and what the room sounds like. Most instruments sound very, very unnatural with very close miking - thin, weedy, scratchy and tons of bow noises - especially when well Rosined! Student instruments don't sound better further away but better ones do - by quite a bit. The best tone is usually on a line bisecting the angle between neck and the bow plane - so 45 degrees off to the right from the player's perspective and up - as you go up, the tone gets rounder. Distance wise, in a church with lots of natural reverb, then maybe a metre? Probably less than 2m. In a drier space then that distance could be too much and the room becomes prominent in a bad way. You'll need to experiment to find the right place for your instrument in your room.

I'm wondering about the accompaniment. recording just the violin leaves it very exposed, but maybe for what you want, that's OK? Tell us more.
 
If you do not have a silent room with good acoustics, you could also look at a pickup system for the violin.
 
Maybe, as a last resort. You could use something like a DPA or Sennheiser MKE-2 on a lyre - clipped to the tailpiece, but while they're good for orchestras that need individual miking, they're a very expensive and often horrible sounding (without major EQ) - and not really a beginner technique. A mellow mic for a strident violin, or a bright one for a dark and murky one are the usual ways - but the room sound, if small can be pretty boxy. If your recording is for technique - maybe practice for a concert where you need to study your phrasing, or even tuning it's not a big problem if it sounds a bit nasty - but if you want the classic sound - it's hard work. Cello is easier, tonally - but totally solo violin can be quite a shock - it needs a decent piano (or whatever) and probably EQ and certainly reverb if you want it to sound like a concert hall and not a bedroom.
 
A few things to consider. Recording solo violin? Just the violin? No accompaniment?

There are a few things to consider. First thing and the most critical one is what the violin sounds like, and what the room sounds like. Most instruments sound very, very unnatural with very close miking - thin, weedy, scratchy and tons of bow noises - especially when well Rosined! Student instruments don't sound better further away but better ones do - by quite a bit. The best tone is usually on a line bisecting the angle between neck and the bow plane - so 45 degrees off to the right from the player's perspective and up - as you go up, the tone gets rounder. Distance wise, in a church with lots of natural reverb, then maybe a metre? Probably less than 2m. In a drier space then that distance could be too much and the room becomes prominent in a bad way. You'll need to experiment to find the right place for your instrument in your room.

I'm wondering about the accompaniment. recording just the violin leaves it very exposed, but maybe for what you want, that's OK? Tell us more.
Thanks for the quick reply. For now I would like to make covers of different songs/pieces/movie soundtracks, where I play different voices on the violin/viola and edit them together, kind of a one man ensemble. I have a bigger living room, that has a little reverb. So I will try to record there and experiment with the acoustics.
Sometimes I also play in quartett, but to record this I guess one needs multiple microphones to get the stereo sound.
 
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If you do not have a silent room with good acoustics, you could also look at a pickup system for the violin.
I read that pickups often record a dry, flat sound? My Instrument has quite a good sound, clear mids and highs to a certain range, but it lacks a bit in the lows (as far as a violin can go low :) ). So I want to get the characteristics of the instrument.
 
"Sometimes I also play in quartett, but to record this I guess one needs multiple microphones to get the stereo sound."
Well, TWO anyway! Heh, if indeed the quartet did want some recordings probably the most convenient solution would be one of the stereo hand held recorders from the likes of Zoom or Tascam etc. You could afford quite an upmarket one if the other three chipped in!
The recorders can be had with fixed mics but better ones have XLR inputs with phantom power. Two active Royers for figure 8 stereo in a nice room? Sluuuurp! (there is also no reason you cannot record a solo fiddle in stereo.)


Dave.
 
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Don't forget that a violin in a nice room is still mono, while the room creates the stereo. Violins are esentially point source instruments, so in a small space they'll be small sounding. Go somewhere with nice acoustics and things get much, much better. The zooms are excellent recorders for this kind of thing, and will do a quartet justice too - in a good space. In fairness, the space is often far more important with certain instruments. Cellos can sound pretty nice recorded in a bedroom, violins much less so. The same applies to saxophones. Altos and sopranos can sound weedy and unexciting, but tenors in the lower register do much better, and baritones can just honk away happily. The small rooms really don't like instruments that start high and go very high.
 
There are a few things to consider when choosing a microphone for recording classical violin. The first is the type of microphone. There are two main types of microphones: dynamic and condenser. Dynamic microphones are more durable and can handle higher sound pressure levels, making them better suited for recording louder instruments like brass or percussion. Condenser microphones are more sensitive and produce a higher quality sound, making them better suited for recording softer instruments like strings or vocals.

The next consideration is the size of the microphone. There are three main sizes: small, medium, and large. Small microphones are best suited for capturing sound in tight spaces, like a studio booth or an instrument's isolation booth. Medium and large microphones are better suited for capturing sound in wider spaces, like a concert hall or outdoor setting.

--
Jason Hook. Audio Enthusiast and Software Developer
Remove or Isolate Vocals from any Song 👉 https://www.UnMixIt.com/
 
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Don't forget that a violin in a nice room is still mono, while the room creates the stereo. Violins are esentially point source instruments, so in a small space they'll be small sounding. Go somewhere with nice acoustics and things get much, much better. The zooms are excellent recorders for this kind of thing, and will do a quartet justice too - in a good space. In fairness, the space is often far more important with certain instruments. Cellos can sound pretty nice recorded in a bedroom, violins much less so. The same applies to saxophones. Altos and sopranos can sound weedy and unexciting, but tenors in the lower register do much better, and baritones can just honk away happily. The small rooms really don't like instruments that start high and go very high.
Of course Rob and I bow to your vast experience. I meant that IN A GOOD ROOM it is nice to record even solo instruments in stereo because that captures the room in a way that mono just can't.

On another tack? Those are vast generalizations about microphones. Many capacitor mics have pads and can cope with sound levels you will only find at Houston. Yes, dynamics are some 20dB less sensitive than the average LDC but there are interfaces with enough gain and low enough noise* to make them useful at some distance. Then there are many versions of the 'cascade' amplifiers about now.
Ribbons are for the most part woefully insensitive but with a top grade pre amp they are reckoned to be the dog's danglers for strings and you won't find a Coles 4038 10mm from a gob...at least not at the BBC!

*Presonus, Sound Devices to name but two.

Dave.
 
I read that pickups often record a dry, flat sound? My Instrument has quite a good sound, clear mids and highs to a certain range, but it lacks a bit in the lows (as far as a violin can go low :) ). So I want to get the characteristics of the instrument.
Well, obviously the pickups just record the dry instrument without any influence of the room. That can be good or bad.
If you live in a flat without good sound isolation, a nice take can be destroyed by a barking dog or screaming child of a neighbor. Mics record everything. With a pickup this does not matter, but you have to add the environment afterwards in post processing with some EQ/hall/reverb/delay effects.
 
Direct pickups also frequently get met with resistance from the owners.we have student instruments that are beaten and battered, and we get very nice ones that are also beaten and battered with the new word, ‘patina’ to describe positive value enhancing dings and dents and wear, and the. There are modest ones people want to keep intact. The electric violins have a pretty bendable sound and with effects and eq work well, but it’s rare to find traditional players who want that kind of sound. You are left with fixing mics to them and if you think finding positions difficult for acoustic guitar, they’re far worse on a violin. Close miking on stands is very hard because players thrash around. The distance between mic and instrument keeps changing. The favourite trick is to use an omni mic. No proximity effect and you can use the ones designed for radio mics. DPA, Countryman, Shure, Sennheiser, AKG all have them and you mount them on the tail piece, or chin rest hardware, often leaving the last couple of inches of cable floating for isolation. The sound is hard, has enhanced bow noise and lacking the fingerboard component. The close pickup has minimal room sound, so always needs work. The best results always come from tech savvy players who know the best place for the mic on their instrument from experience. Always listen to them. One asked me to fit a windshield. It turned out when he played, he breathed very heavily through his nose, and wind was a serious problem. In a church you can stick up a condenser and just move it in and out till the instrument/space balance is right. Never try to use two mics close in to try to capture ‘stereo’ as they move quickly left to right, especially during those amazing cadenza. On headphones it can be VERY disturbing.

Bedroom recording always needs EQ and reverb if it is to sound natural. Last year I had a project where a number of string players self recorded. The leader replaced most of them because their recordings had so many nasty room artefacts that they just didn’t blend. He just played their parts in his treated room on alternative instruments to get differences, and we didn’t tell the players we’d dumped their contribution. Recording nice sounding violins is very hard.
 
If it were me, and I know it's not :), I'd pick any of the many, many great entry-level condenser microphones available on the market. The rest I'd devote to room treatment. I'd spend significantly more time, more research, and more money on the room treatment rather the mic. For acoustic instrumental recording, the room is virtually everything. A $6000.00 Neumann is useless in a wonky room. I'll take a $150.00 mic in a magical room every time and without exception.

Having said that the topic of room treatment, as a generic statement, is a bit more tricky. There is, despite conventional opinions, no one problem and conversely no one solution. There's a boatload of instructional and informational videos available and in the end, it's a matter of identifying what
 
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Sorry…..continuing the above post. Unbeknownst to me I got cut-off. I guess that can be a good thing from time to time :) As I mentioned there’s tons of info available as to address what the specific (or even not so specific) room issues might be and how to properly address them. In the general scheme of things I’d rank the order of importance in acoustic recording as 1) The player. 2) The room. 3) The instrument itself. 4) Proper placement of the mic. The rest fall in place much lower on the totem pole of importance.

I wouldn’t sweat the details of the mic (there’s sooo many budget condensers out there that are more than capable) but rather find the very best sonically sound area in which to record. The room always trumps the mic for instrument recording especially those difficult instruments, like a violin. :)
 
The violin in this track was recorded using an Audio Technica 853, which is more usually used to capture choirs and the like.

It was positioned about half a metre above the violin in a fairly dry room. Reverb was added after the event.

(Violin starts about 20 seconds in)

 
During lockdown, I created various remote projects for the choirs and orchestras I keep recording - singers and musicians recording themselves at home - and one thing was very clear. an iPhone mic is very capable and the room is the absolute arbiter of success. One made me smile - two violins, a viola, cello and double bass. The band leader recorded in his home space - a bedroom it looked like - with heavy velvet curtains drawn, his wardrobe visible with open doors and more clothes hanging from the picture rail all around the space I could see. There wasn't any bare wall visible . His note said - please use the dark towel behind me when you crop - please don't let them see the mess. I'll leave you to add what reverb you think it needs. The other musicians supplied theirs. One in her kitchen, another in the bathroom because the tiles "make it sound nice" (it didn't) and the others in bare walled rooms. Worst was the double bass that made something in the room rattle on certain notes. I passed them to the leader and his solution? He recorded all the other parts on violin and cello (he didn't have a viola) and I recorded the double bass with me playing it - not used a bow for over 20 years! We both agreed not to tell the others - so in the video, we see them, but hear us five dead tracks, so a nice reverb that is the same on everyone worked really well. The original were played beautifully in rotten rooms.

Violins rely on the space more than the others, and I agree that mic choice is less critical on them as EQ can usually save the day, even with cheaper mics.
 
During lockdown, I created various remote projects for the choirs and orchestras I keep recording - singers and musicians recording themselves at home - and one thing was very clear. an iPhone mic is very capable and the room is the absolute arbiter of success. One made me smile - two violins, a viola, cello and double bass. The band leader recorded in his home space - a bedroom it looked like - with heavy velvet curtains drawn, his wardrobe visible with open doors and more clothes hanging from the picture rail all around the space I could see. There wasn't any bare wall visible . His note said - please use the dark towel behind me when you crop - please don't let them see the mess. I'll leave you to add what reverb you think it needs. The other musicians supplied theirs. One in her kitchen, another in the bathroom because the tiles "make it sound nice" (it didn't) and the others in bare walled rooms. Worst was the double bass that made something in the room rattle on certain notes. I passed them to the leader and his solution? He recorded all the other parts on violin and cello (he didn't have a viola) and I recorded the double bass with me playing it - not used a bow for over 20 years! We both agreed not to tell the others - so in the video, we see them, but hear us five dead tracks, so a nice reverb that is the same on everyone worked really well. The original were played beautifully in rotten rooms.

Violins rely on the space more than the others, and I agree that mic choice is less critical on them as EQ can usually save the day, even with cheaper mics.
Indeed Rob. As I mentioned the room is the single biggest tone generator, other than the player, in the recording signal path. The trick however at least for us mere mortals with mortal budgets is to first identify then address problematic sonic issues without breaking the bank or wrecking the aesthetics of the environment. That often takes time, trial and error, some degree of compromise, and a boat-load of research to get a room to its best.

It is however important to note that a good-sounding room is just that and may indeed need no attention at all. There are plenty of magical rooms that just serendipitously work. James Taylor, Sting and Bruce Springsteen all purchased real estate based at least in part on sonics.

On the other hand, the old wives-tale about purchasable sound treatment kits is simple fools folly. All the major audio retailers were pushing that concept hard a few years back. It just doesn't work that way. There is no singular sonic problem that can be addressed with a singular purchased product and to make matters worse a lot of that product simply didn't do anything by way of making things sound better. They were, by and large, placebos.

The most universal problem is of course the noise floor or the room itself. This dictates how far away mic placement can be from the source. For me, condensers on acoustic instruments sound far more natural when mic'd from a bit of distance. If the room's noise floor forces a close mic technique then it almost always is overly apparent in the recording. It's not a horrible sound but it's not a great sound either. This is especially egregious with acoustic guitars because of their ridiculously wide frequency responses. Too close and proximity traits create an unusable, boomy mess.

In the end, there are solutions even in the home recording environments if one is inclined to do the grunt work of research. One super easy remedy for noise floor (albeit a bit costly) is iZotope's Spectral De-Noise plug-in which has become one of, if not the most used plug-in for the motion picture and television industry as a means of controlling noise on location sets where noise is often a given. It's wonderfully effective on instrument recording as well. My two cents of course but, give me a good room and whatever decent mic you might have and I'll make that work better than the $6000.00 Neumann in an awful room and do that consistently.
 
Totally agree, it seems weird to record in silly places then fix it electronically. Thee are so few truly bad mics, but loads of bad spaces!
 
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