Seriously...come on! +4 or -10

RecordingMaster

RecordingMaster

A Sarcastic Statement
Complete noob question but the only answer I've ever gotten is "it depends on your setup". Well my setup is extraordinarily simple, so surely someone kind (and knowledgeable) has to have an answer for me... :confused:

My set up is in my siggy, but to put it in long form, I have the following chain (which gets switched around using my patchbay depending on the given task):
20 channel audio snake > ART Pro MPA II Mic pre amp with +4/-10 switch > ART Pro VLA II compressor with +4/-10 switch > TASCAM US-1800 interface with +4/-10 switch > iMac OSX 10.68 > Pro Tools 9 > Pug laying on floor

So, naturally I'd imagine they should either ALL (the 3 outboard devices) be set to +4 or ALL be set to -10. So which one would it be in my case? Seems no one has ever had a definitive answer. Is this really that much of a blunder?

Main reason I ask, is most have suggested +4, but the other night tracking and using the VLA (with the chain above), it was causing quite a hiss when activated as opposed to being in bypass (with my speakers turned up to the max, mind you). I googled the issue and all's I could find was "make sure you're running your stuff at the correct one: +4 or -10". Gah!

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks as always! :)
 
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it depends on your setup....
and which side your pug is laying on.
:)

I don't really have a solid answer for ya but I've just tried both and went with which one sounded cleanest.
Like ya mentioned the hiss...maybe that's one of the differences between "pro" vs "consumer" gear.
?

I dunno but you really should rotate the pug. ;)
 
In theory you should go with +4 if ALL your gear supports it. It's a hotter signal with the potential to be quieter.
Either can work fine but theoretically +4 is considered superior.

However ...... if you notice that it doesn't sound as good or is noisier than -10 I wouldn't hesitate to switch. Just make sure that that's the true reason for the noise.
 
Thanks guys. Seems to be the same answers I see everywhere, and the truth is, that's probably about the most accurate answer that will ever exist.

To confirm, yes all my outboard stuff does have the option of either or.

And maybe I WILL try rotating my pug! She's a better bass trap than a studio cat btw...more mass! :eatpopcorn:
 
You need to tone down the compressor if it's adding that much hiss. Extreme compression raises the noise floor considerably.

Why do you have to turn those monitors all the way up?
 
definitive answer ..... +4 with your set up as it stands.

Only use the -10 if you plan on using your gear with say ... your home stereo set up.
 
c7sus said:
You need to tone down the compressor if it's adding that much hiss. Extreme compression raises the noise floor considerably.

Why do you have to turn those monitors all the way up?
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Thanks guys, ok great. Some good ballzy direct answers: "+4" it is!

c7sus, yes I probably was pushing it a little hard, although the make up gain was maybe only at +5db max. Sometimes (when the sound signal isn't actually playing) I'll raise up my monitors quite high when using a piece of outboard just to see how clean of a sound with it compared to without. So like I said, that test is what revealed how hissy the VLA was when I took it off bypass. Surely, when I turned the monitors back down to "normal listening level", the hiss was barely audible when the audio track was playing, even when solo'ed. I'm just very nit-picky I guess and always keep an eye on that stuff (noise) so I'm always trying to get the cleanest signal possible. Just doing my due diligence in attempt at being a "responsible" engineer I guess! :o
 
Just to sort of restate what moresound said: You say that the Tascam has the capability of either, but the only way that would matter is if you're taking analog outs from it into something else. That's where it would depend on what you're taking them into. A home stereo is all I can think of that shouldn't have the capability of +4. All of the other stuff should be +4 until you get to that stage.

On a side note, how's that BCF2000 working out? I keep thinking about getting one, but I'm leery of the quality in regards to durability.
 
Also, get a collie/shephard mix. They act not only as high frequency absorbers, but portable bass traps. The only problem is that their placement can be somewhat random, especially dependant on the source material.
 
For the most part, it doesn't matter which one you use. The point is to match all of them. Make sure that you are outputing at the level that the input of the next device expects.

Since all of your stuff has the option to work at +4, go with that.

The compressor will have more hiss at +4 than at -10, probably 11db more hiss. But it will be putting out 11db more signal too, so the signal to noise is still the same.

Simply turning up your monitors until you hear the noise isn't really a good measure of how much noise there is. No matter how quiet a piece of equipment is, everything has noise and if you turn your monitors up enough, you will hear it.
 
RecordingMaster said:
Thanks guys, ok great. Some good ballzy direct answers: "+4" it is!

c7sus, yes I probably was pushing it a little hard, although the make up gain was maybe only at +5db max. Sometimes (when the sound signal isn't actually playing) I'll raise up my monitors quite high when using a piece of outboard just to see how clean of a sound with it compared to without. So like I said, that test is what revealed how hissy the VLA was when I took it off bypass. Surely, when I turned the monitors back down to "normal listening level", the hiss was barely audible when the audio track was playing, even when solo'ed. I'm just very nit-picky I guess and always keep an eye on that stuff (noise) so I'm always trying to get the cleanest signal possible. Just doing my due diligence in attempt at being a "responsible" engineer I guess! :o
Click to expand...

Raising the makeup gain +5dB is nearly quadrupling the amplitude of the signal. That much makeup gain in what is really a piece of consumer gear as opposed to pro gear is going to introduce noise from the unit as well as raise the noise floor of the original recorded signal substantially.

And only get a border collie/shepard mix if your recordings lack "hair".

Decibel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/elec...-production/640249-spl-3db-double-volume.html
 
c7sus said:
Raising the makeup gain +5dB is nearly quadrupling the amplitude of the signal. That much makeup gain in what is really a piece of consumer gear as opposed to pro gear is going to introduce noise from the unit as well as raise the noise floor of the original recorded signal substantially.
Click to expand...

But 5dB is still 5dB even though it is nearly 4x power. It still sounds just like 5dB of change, which is noticeable but subjectively less than double volume.
 
bouldersoundguy said:
But 5dB is still 5dB even though it is nearly 4x power. It still sounds just like 5dB of change, which is noticeable but subjectively less than double volume.
Click to expand...

Depends on how the rest of your gain staging is set up. If everything else is unity, yeah, double volume would be more like 9dB. If you're going above unity after adding that 5dB it's gonna get that much more amplification on down the line, and likely more noise too.

And if your original noise floor was x to begin with, after compression and makeup gain at 5dB now your noise floor is 4x, and even possibly higher depending on the quality of the compressor in question.
 
Thanks for all the input, guys! So I guess at the end of the day, I have everything set up properly and there's not much else I can do other than be less picky or spend x10 the amount of $ I spent on the VLA on a "Pro" compressor (go figure the name of the VLA has 'Pro' in it. Ah marketing). Also, drive the signal less - which, for the record, I'm not some compression freak that overdrives everything recklessly, it was more for trial purposes when we were setting up a signal for the bass the other day when i noticed it. After noticing it, I ended up bypassing it so I didn't kick myself later. I figured I'd ask you fellas (and gals) before actually using it on a track to make sure I wasn't doing something wrong.

c7sus, thanks for the info on dB's. I didn't realize it was raising the amplitude of the signal by the much. But with my own human ears, bouldersoundguy has a point, it still only sounds 5dB louder (still more noise floor though).

Jay, I definitely agree, good point - all gear makes some sort of noise if you put it under the microscope. I'm a graphic designer/marketing mgr by day so i tend to be a little on the overly-analytic side.

notCardio, the BCF does exactly what it says it should do. I wish they still made the white one. Looks cleaner and "newer" in age. Anyways, I use it only in Pro Tools 9 in Baby Hui Mode, which emulates the original Mackie Control in a simplified manner (shitty Adobe Audition CS5.5 doesn't even support control surfaces! What a crock!). I find it is accurate, without any delay, smooth and has sped up my work flow quite a bit. The only issues I'd point out is that it doesn't have screens to tell you what track you're on - you need to look up at the screen or memorize where all your stuff is which is hard when you keep adding tracks and occasionally re-organize their order. Some people complain about the fact that the faders make noise when the motor is moving them. They're just whining, it's not bad and with music on you barely hear it. For the money (I paid 180 CAD used), it's great with all the features it has. Although if you want a jog wheel, a few more features like screens on each track, a "cooler" more modern studio look, a bigger board to impress, I'd spend x3 the cash and get a Mackie Universal Control Pro. I actually want one now but can't justify it since I already have something that does the same thing. The Mackie is cooler for adding on as well, since they have the extender Pro which is way cooler than adding a whole other BCF unit. Just a matter of preference and available cash I'd say. Good luck.

Thanks again guys!
 
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