Send levels, Bus Levels

andrushkiwt

andrushkiwt

Well-known member
trying to find the pros and cons of how your send vs bus levels are set up. For example, If I have a guitar bus holding 4 guitar tracks, and that guitar bus is sent to a reverb channel... What is the preferred staging of these gain amounts?

I can set my reverb bus to be both 100% wet AND at 0db on the fader, but then I have to set my guitar bus send level way down, maybe -20db, or else it's completely washed in reverb.

On the other hand, I can set my reverb bus channel to 100% wet AND -16db on the fader, but then I'd have to set my guitar bus send to reverb channel higher, maybe -7db, to get a natural reverb effect from the reverb channel.

So, is there a consensus that I'm unaware of regarding gain staging of fx buses and the channels that pass through them? Is the Fx channel high gain with the individual sends being lower, or vice versa?

Or is it that the net effect is the same?
 
In analog, where you’re actually sending out of the mixer to some other gear and back with all the noise that adds, it’s best to run send levels relatively hot and then turn down the return.

In digital it doesn’t much matter either way. The only real concern is fader resolution - it gets tough to make small adjustments when the faders are very low. But you get that at one end or the other whichever way you choose. There is a third option, though. Run the send and return levels higher but then turn down the output of reverb plugin itself or add some other plugin to attenuate the signal.
 
yes I guess that's what I was wondering - if the resolution/quality of the reverb is less if I have the reverb channel fader too low, say -17db but run the guitar bus hot to it.

When you say "small adjustments", do you mean adjustments in the reverb plugin and the effect those adjustments have on the guitars passing through it?
ashcat_lt said:
In analog, where you’re actually sending out of the mixer to some other gear and back with all the noise that adds, it’s best to run send levels relatively hot and then turn down the return.

In digital it doesn’t much matter either way. The only real concern is fader resolution - it gets tough to make small adjustments when the faders are very low. But you get that at one end or the other whichever way you choose. There is a third option, though. Run the send and return levels higher but then turn down the output of reverb plugin itself or add some other plugin to attenuate the signal.
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No. Nothing to do with audio resolution. Faders tend to be logarithmic so that the same distance of adjustment leads to bigger gain changes when the fader is down toward the bottom. Near 0, you can easily make sub-db adjustments. Down toward the bottom that gets harder. It’s about convenience and ergonomics and workflow.
 
andrushkiwt said:
trying to find the pros and cons of how your send vs bus levels are set up. For example, If I have a guitar bus holding 4 guitar tracks, and that guitar bus is sent to a reverb channel... What is the preferred staging of these gain amounts?

I can set my reverb bus to be both 100% wet AND at 0db on the fader, but then I have to set my guitar bus send level way down, maybe -20db, or else it's completely washed in reverb.

On the other hand, I can set my reverb bus channel to 100% wet AND -16db on the fader, but then I'd have to set my guitar bus send to reverb channel higher, maybe -7db, to get a natural reverb effect from the reverb channel.

So, is there a consensus that I'm unaware of regarding gain staging of fx buses and the channels that pass through them? Is the Fx channel high gain with the individual sends being lower, or vice versa?

Or is it that the net effect is the same?
Click to expand...
If I'm bussing Guitars to a Reverb I couldn't tell you what's the right setting - it's really what sounds right - and there isn't a setting that you can adhere too.
 
I keep the dry signal in the reverb output low to zip so it’s mostly just the wet signal feeding into the overall mix. It depends, of course, but if you’re feeding mono to a stereo buss, with the stereo output of the reverb spreading things around, it can make placement a little less precise. Sometimes that’s maybe what you want, so feel free to mess with the dry-wet mix, but usually I just want the reverb/echo stuff itself to be a space -size thing.
 
A number of modern plugins are designed to emulate classic hardware units. So the input level is going to affect the plugin in many cases just like it would a piece of hardware.

In some cases pushing the circuitry with a hot input level would be desirable. And other cases it would produce unwanted results.

This is going to vary on a case by case basis. So if you are running plugins that emulate classic outboard rack gear, you better know how it operates.
 
I started to put all the reverb and delay etc on the channel instead of sending the channel to a reverb/ delay FX kind of channel because I got sick of, for example, having the vocal level set...then when I would use a send from the vocal over to the reverb FX channel, the vocal level would go up and I could never get how to get the level back where it was with the right amount of reverb on it. So I just started putting reverbs right on the vocal. I'm doing something wrong.
 
I agree with BSG, when you put the effects on a aux bus, you need to set the effect to 100% wet, so you aren't adding dry signal back to the mix.
 
I didn't explain very well so watch this, it might be useful and does explain a bit about gain staging.


 
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bouldersoundguy said:
Are your effects set to 100% wet/effect?
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Me? When I put em right on the channel they are meant for I set them to whatever wet % I think is right. You know like 8% or whatever the case may be. When I used to do sends from the vocal channel to the send FX then they'd be 100% wet and I'd adjust the send level to impart the reverb. I just found that way a bit weird because I'd always end up with the vocal raising in volume and I'd feel messed up.
 
Monkey Allen said:
I started to put all the reverb and delay etc on the channel instead of sending the channel to a reverb/ delay FX kind of channel because I got sick of, for example, having the vocal level set...then when I would use a send from the vocal over to the reverb FX channel, the vocal level would go up and I could never get how to get the level back where it was with the right amount of reverb on it. So I just started putting reverbs right on the vocal. I'm doing something wrong.
Click to expand...
No, you can do that of course. I set up each instrument/vocal with it's own Auxes--2 of them, with one for reverb and the other for delay. Only specific instruments are sent to those Aux sends and the returns (color-coded to match whatever track(s) they're associated with) are sent to the specific sub-mix bus that controls those instruments. Same, then, for all the other tracks--vocals get two Auxes, with reverb and delay, and those returns are sent to the vocals bus. There are exceptions, but almost always that is the flow. I have very little processing on those sub-mix buses, maybe some EQ and an amp, but rarely compression. That gets taken care of at the track, level like you do with reverb. I used to do everything at the track level too, but the separate AUX buses for each type of track seems to work well, and is easily controlled and kept track of, the AUX returns at the very right of all the tracks they are controlling. That's the beauty of computers and establishing several instances of the same plug-in, in this case reverb and delay.
 
I always put my delay/reverb Fx plugs on a bus set to 100% wet - faders will be at unity gain
Where we differ is I'll put a send on each TRACK to the Fx busses and it's very common to have these at quite a low %/dB
 
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