Self-Sufficient artists

  • Thread starter Thread starter El Barto
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That's why I'd rather record live...more emotion, more energy, and more real/natural.
 
Yeah, I'm interested in how to go about recording live, too - not in front of an audience, but in the studio. The energy's not just higher, but *different*. I reckon the problem's sensitive mics that pick up everything in the room, making it difficult or impossible to work with individual tracks in the mix later. So probably pairs of mics in different positions in the room to record the whole sound at once rather than individual instruments/voices?
 
You're a moderator and don't know? heh! I'm assuming that you just set everything up and mic it like you would do individually. Someone said that you'd want to point your amp away from the drums (or towards, don't remember), and possibly just place mics around the room to pick up ambience. The whole point of recording live is to do it once (or many times) and get it down right, instead of overdubbing. Anyone know a good way to record live?
 
I have a recording of my old band that was taken fight off the board and it sounds horrible even though it was being mixed by a pro. That's because he was mixing for the live sound environment, not for recording. So just mix for recording. Do what you can to isolate with sleeping bags, rugs, etc. but mike everthing. Because we do this in a basement, we have to do some mixing trials by recording takes since we're not monitering from somewhere else. if you have a 100ft snake, moniter from somewhere else and save some time. A little reverb on this & that, and compression if you know anything about it (i don't) and you'll do fine. I suppose it might be a good idea to have a headphone amp with mult. outs for all the players, but we is po'. Best of luck.
PS I can't believe this thread is still going!
 
Okay, I realize that being at the bottom of this thread doesn't make it likely for my post to get read but here goes my $0.02. First of all let me say that I am fairly new to home recording and have a modest setup. I would bet that just about any studio could improve my recordings greatly. Now that I've got that out of the way, I will say with no hesitation, that in most situations the "Big Boy" producers and engineers usually do more harm than good. I rarely listen to bands that have "made it" and prefer to buy CD's of bands that I can walk down to a local bar and see for $5 on a pretty regular basis. There are some exceptions however. The Dave Matthews Band is my favorite band and they have without a doubt "made it". I started listening to them prior to this and first heard them in a bar with about 400 other people in attendance. Of all the recordings they have done the first, Remember Two Things, is far superior to the ones that followed. I don't know the exact details of how this was recorded but I do know that it was an independent release and my favorite tracks are the live ones. I imagine these were recorded from the soundboard to DAT but I can't say for sure. Every studio album they have put out since then has had Steve Lillywhite at the helm. I would assume from the list of artists that he has worked with that he would be considered a "Big Boy". I like the albums that they have put out with Lillywhite but they don't even come close to the sound of R2T. They're just more cluttered and less detailed. I'm not basing everything on this one example either. I have had the opportunity to watch some other bands make the rise from independant to a major label act and I almost always prefer the pre-major label recordings to the "Big Boy" ones. Take a band from my hometown, Hootie and the Blowfish, whose independent CD, Kootchiepop, contained many songs that were later released on major label recordings. What did the "Big Boys" do, they convinced them to throw in some keyboards and various other BS to create that magical "wall of sound" which I like to call that "clusterfuck quality". Why can't they just keep it simple. There is another band from this area which you have probably never heard of called Cravin' Melon. Why haven't you heard of them?, because they signed a major label contract, went to a "Big Boy" studio where they convinced them to change to tempo of the songs and slow everything down and effectively ruined their songs. Now maybe you are familiar with all of the examples I have cited above and completely disagree with me on all three and that's just fine with me, because you are entitled to your opinion. The same as I am entitled to mine, which is why, if I were to ever go into a big studio and record anything, it would come out sounding how I wanted it to sound. I don't care what the "Big Boys" say will sell. If that's the only reason you're in it then you're music probably sucks anyway. It is my music, I know how I want it to sound. Professional studio guys have a place in the world but their place is not to create art, it is to record it as best they can. Okay, the rant is over.
 
Great points...I really prefer having complete control over the music than having another guy to deal with, like a pro producer or engineer. I don't want someone saying "You know, this and this would sound better..." Sure, a little constructive criticism might help, but when they push you or corner you into doing something, it kinda ruins the magic you had going when you wrote the song. I think it would be fun to record with a "wall of sound," like a very small orchestra. Will this become? Tommorow never knows...
 
People that have never worked with a competent engineer and/or producer will think many of the things above.

Ed
 
Sonusman: LOL hee hee hee hee hee - I was hoping you'd show up. :)

El Barto: yes I'm a moderator, and yes, you could fill many large and useful books with what I don't know about home recording. :)

Cliff: you might find you've lent a new lease of life to this thread by stepping right into the middle of a topic that we regularly smack each other over the head with. :) Here's a thought and a question. The thought: I've gained a whole new respect for sound quality, the experience and gear it takes to achieve it, and the value of having another set of (intelligent) ears outside the band to give feedback and maybe even suggestions, even though I'm a diehard independent, a 'don't you even *think* of messing with my song' sort of person. The question: Do you think that in some of the cases you mentioned, these bands were victims of the 'first album's the best' curse? Sometimes I think you shouldn't release the first CD until you've got the second one written at least.

And a postscript: 'clusterfuck quality' is a wonderful term. Every time I keep it simple, things works better. Probably something to do with my personality. :)
 
Well I am very familiar with the sophomore slump that many artist have because they spent years perfecting the songs on the first album and a few months writing the ones on the second. This case is a little different though because the first albums were independents and in the cases mentioned above, there were 3,3, and 4 songs respectively which were later re-recorded and released on later major label discs. In all 10 cases, I prefer the originals to the ones done in big studios. Ed, it isn't that I think all professional recording guys are evil or anything like that, I just don't agree that they should try to alter the song from the artist's original intent. Writing good songs and performing them well is difficult to do. A song is also a very personal creation and because of this I think the writer/performer should have 99% of the say in how the finished product sounds. Unfortunately as you mentioned, most artists don't know enough about recording to do a good job themselves. When it comes to big time acts who don't have to worry about paying for recording time I don't see this as a problem because if they don't like the final mix, they can do it again. It is the bands on a budget who really have a potential to get screwed over because if they take the producer's/engineer's word for it then they could end up with a recording they don't like that costed a hell of a lot of money. When you get right down to it though, the most important thing is that what sounds good is all a matter of opinion. I don't care how many years someone has spent studying recording, they can't tell me what sounds good, only I can decide that for myself. If I record some music that I wrote, I want to be personally satisfied with it and what the rest of the world thinks of it is secondary. It all comes down to a matter of taste. I personally really like very simple recordings. Lately, I've been playing Ben Harper's latest CD non-stop and my favorite tracks are just acoustic guitar and vocals. I find it hard to believe that it takes years and years of training and multi-million dollar equipment to get that right.
 
You may be surprised how many years it takes to learn how to get mic placement down for two very intricate and delicate instruments like voice and acoustic guitar. Also, I cannot think of two other tracks that require the top of the line gear like those two.

You will not know what I am talking about untill you work with someone competent. You think that the artist in most big time recordings makes the call on what the mix will sound like? Do you even think the producer makes that call? Nope. In very few cases do the artist or the producer dictate the production's end result. No, that is left to people that know about as little about it as the artist's do....the label itself.... :D

The reason the label "agree's" with the artist's choice for producer is usually because the label knows that the Producer can deliver a final product that will please them on the budget that is available. They also know that the Producer will squeez the best performances out of the artist as possible.

You know, seldomly do any of the artist's I work with come out sounding like they wanted. You know why? Because they have very bad allusions about what they ACTUALLY sound like. When they think they sound like Tool, they usually sound like Judas Priest... :D So, then lets throw in that the artist only has a certain budget anyway. As the producer/engineer, it is my job to get the best finished product that holds true to what the band ACTAULLY sound like. What else can I do?

I always wished that bands would pay me for pre-production so that we could work towards achieving the sound that is right for them. Not the sound they THINK they have, but the sound that compliments their music. You see, I have to actually put them on tape before they believe a damn thing I say. Such a waist. By then, there is no budget to come back and actually track the song the way it would sound better. So, I have to mix with less than ideal tracks, all sounding the way the artist wanted them to sound. Then while mixing, they can't understand why I can't make the drummers Tama Rockstar set sound like the DW's that JoeBigTime used on their CD. And the guitar player can't understand why I can't make their Kramer with a Crate setup sound like Eddie Van Halens tone.

The singer of course want's to sound like what's his name from Queensryche. Now if he could only sing that in tune............

So you get the idea. The band produced. Didn't know what they don't know. Product sound's lousy. Who do they blame? Oh, not the people responsible for producing it (themselves), nope, blame it all on the poor engineer who had 4 guys at mix telling him to turn everything up....

Now let's get back to this business about what an artist ACTAULLY sound like. Who do you guys think you sound like? Now, who produced them? Where was it recorded at? Okay, so you THINK you sound like them. The only way you will know is to use the same producer and studio with a comparable budget and the same equipment including instuments. Then we will see. But, chances are the song writing style is not even close to the same.

You see, producers and great engineers get paid to work on all that cool music because they time and time again deliver products that appeal to a wider range of listeners. How do they know how to do this? Why, they played around for years with many different production techniques, and worked on countless "going nowhere" projects getting the experience neccessary to work at the level they do now.

Fuck it! I have grown tired of this talk. It seems that every week I am posting something that says this same thing. Every week, some smart ass comes back with the VERY FEW EXCEPTIONS to what I am talking about. Round and round it goes.

So, you all work on your demos. Go ahead and kid yourselves into thinking you don't want universal appeal like the artists on the radio. I know that is not the truth, and so do you. Go ahead and fool yourselves into thinking that if you could just find those few magical setting on the mixer that you will get that big time sound.

This is not ego talking here, just my honest to god observation. I probably post the most professional sounding stuff on this BBS and yet, my stuff still does not get that big time sound. I probably have the best studio of just about anyone on this BBS. Yet, it is so far away from the right stuff.

So, once again I challenge you all to this. When one of you produces a song on your setup that you think is comparable with the big boy recordings, post an MP3 somewhere and send me a message asking me to take a listen. When I start hearing stuff that is killer in any way, why I will tip my hat to you, and then add you to the EXCEPTION list that is not very long.

Now I am REALLY done posting on this thread.

Ed
 
I have to follow up on Ed's post...

When most bands on a MAJOR record label go into the studio, they are not footing the bill; it is the label itself. Since the label, which is a BUSINESS, is paying for the artist to record, they want to make sure that the project is a success and will be able to sell it to millions of people. Therefore, to be able to sell the music to large quantities of people, the recordings have to reflect what the masses want, NOT what the artist wants.

To accomplish this task, the label hires professional engineers and producers. It is up to them to form the sound of the band to what is "mainstream". Obviously by this point the label recognizes that the band does have potential. The engineers and producers are paid by the label and not the band, so they do what the label expects of them, not what the band tells them to do. I bet many times bands go through this recording process kicking and screaming. If the recordings sound terrible, it is not only a direct reflection on the band, but it hurts the reputation of the engineer and producer. Likewise, if the recordings sound great, the engineers and producers have done their jobs, and more times than not, the band gets most of the credit in the eyes of the masses.

The moral of this story is that if a band wants to sell millions of copies of their music, then they will need to put their egos on the shelf and let the engineers and producers do their thing. If the band cares more about their music and less about record sales, then they can produce it themselves.

One last thing. If you are going to hire a professional engineer or producer, do your homework. Don't just hire the first Joe you meet, hire people that you trust. :D

[This message has been edited by Fishmed (edited 03-14-2000).]
 
While you claim you are done with this thread and therefore may not read this, I feel the need to retort. First of all while this is rather insignificant to the rest of the discussion, years to learn mic placement? there are only a few variables there, distance and angle, give me a day and I can try out just about every combination imaginable by trial and error.

Now for the rest of your comments, I realize that the label gets the final say in what gets released for most new artists but there are some that have complete creative control. Besides, the label guys can only choose between what you give them. As far as the artists having illusions about what they sound like. I don’t agree with trying to make a band something they are not. Why would you want to make some talentless hack, a star. I can’t count the # of times that I have heard a bands CD, liked the songs, and then gone to see them and was in complete disgust with the how they actually sounded. Some times they really ought to have refunds on cover charges. It’s like some guy was asking yesterday about a device to make off-key vocal tracks sound better. I’m of the opinion that if you can’t sing it right, then don’t be a singer. Now I realize that you make your living by recording so you have to put out the best product you can in order to get more business. I know you can’t just tell bands that come into your studio that they suck and you aren’t gonna waste their time and money. There are some artists, some that I go see play once a month in my hometown that have talent. Who, if they heard themselves recorded would probably think “I had no idea how good I sounded”, rather than “Why don’t I sound like…”. These are the guys who should be able to decide what their final product sounds like. The guys with no talent, I could care less about.

As for me kidding myself about not wanting universal appeal, I have to disagree. As long as “artists” like Kid Rock and Brittany Spears continue to go multi-platinum that is exactly what I don’t want. I don’t mean to be elitist or anything but the majority of people in this world have a serious lack of taste. Want evidence? Wrestling shows are the most watched in this country, which pretty much says it all. I’ll take self-respect over popularity any day.

It all comes down to this though. Music is my most serious hobby. I wish that was how I made my living but it isn’t. I chose a field with a little more security and busted my ass to get a degree in chemical engineering so that I wouldn’t have to worry about paying the rent. I’m happy with my decision even though I have friends who are in bands that are doing very well which occasionally makes me a little jealous. We will see 10 or 15 years down the road who’s better off though. At any rate, the reason I come on this website is to get information about making better recordings. Not so I’ll be able to mass produce a CD and make millions off of it. To me it is more of a songwriting tool to help me further my musicianship. So if you want to hear something I recorded, go to the MP3 mixing clinic and search under my name. I posted my first song a few months ago and the link should still be there. I’m sure you will tear it apart because the mix isn’t great. It was my first song I ever recorded, the second take, done with a dynamic mic, and a $20 sound card. Do I think it sounds professional? Hell No! You know what though, I have a friend that owns a bar in a college town and he plays that song sometimes in his bar. He said almost every time he plays it someone comes up to him and asks him who it is and says that they like it. That’s all the approval I need.
 
Some more good points.
Hey Ed I thought you were done, here? I thought I was too!

I wouldn't dare go into a pro. studio without an engineer because I could never learn to use all the equip. in the time my budget would afford me. (My budget has traditionally been $0.00 US) These guys have budgets and deadlines, so it makes sense to hire people to help. Not to mention people to motivate when all you want to do is get high!! My old band recorded on somebody else's clock once and it became the most stressful part of the project, knowing how much money it was costing when our bassist couldn't get his lines down. Needless to say, that recording sounded like shit. The guy who owned the studio though, recently put out a solo that he did by himself and it sounds awesome, but it took home over 200 studio hours. BTW it was 8tr. ADAT, mackie board, Alesis FX, DAT, and sure SM's, that's all! Ed, Would you like to put the ears to it? I'll see if we can arrange something.
I like recording at home and want to get better equip. mostly because I'd rather spend the money on the equip. and have time to learn about it than to spend all on one project. I realize that I kind of become the De Facto engineer in this respect. Oh yeah, ALWAYS get some outside opinions on mixing, NEVER the same day as tracking. Wearing 2 hats can be tough, almost seems like a conflict of interest, but the rewards at the end are worth it> Please lock this thread, I can't seem to stop. Cheers!
 
I dunno... one night my band didn't show up at my studio to record. so i wrote a song, produced, and tracked it all by myself playing every instrument. it was done on 2 black adats, allen & heath oldie but goodie console, symetrix, behringer comp's tl audio tube eq's, preamps, digitech pre's and mixed to 16 bit dat. no exciting or enhancing. at 4033's at 3525's, sm57's, akg d-112 2 hours of my time and i edited it on sound forge.... no one still can believe it was just me.... i was even told that i should get my ass to LA asap after i played a tape dubbed onto a non-hxpro tape deck i think i came pretty close that night to hitting that all-important "magical button" that just made it all work.... equiptment and technique sometimse isn't all maybe it's my chi energy or something i have a poster of bruce lee in the control room that's it!! ED! get a bruce lee poster for your vanagon or whatever (just kidding)
i want a studio on my moped actually i draw parallels between the martial art jeet kune do and recording the philosophy is that you learn all the knowledge and then forget you did and just let what happens happen i am not crazy i swear
 
Cliff, you prove my point. You are MORE interested in the art of music than the sales of your project; therefore, having complete control of your recordings is appropriate.

IF someone is more concerned with record sales, then having professional producers and engineers is a must for someone just starting off in the mainstream business.
 
Right you are, and now for the straw poll...

How many here are more interested in sales?

And how many here are more interested in getting good music recorded as well as they can?

I'm not expecting a unanimous result. :)
 
I'm more interested in doing my thing and recording it, not doing what everyone else is doing so I can make a billion sales. I want to get the best recording down that I can with the equipment I have.
 
Not to be wishey washey or anything, but I want to achieve both excellent recording quality AND high record sales.
But the most important thing to me, overall, is each song itself. I write about "real life".... real situations and real emotions. Whether the song is serious, humorous, melancholy, or wants to make you jump out of your seat and rock... it has to provoke a response and make people feel something.
Even though a song might not have killer recording quality, it may still excel due to great writing and/or emotion in the performance.
You can't keep a good song down.
 
I am a musician first and an engineer second.
I studied music in college until I dropped out of school because I started hacking got good became an engineer for a long distance company. So, I know what a total pain in the ass an engineers job is, trying to make something of nothing/ no money/ no time/ no equipment no hands to do work etc. I know how the musician in me feels (my time is wasted dicking around with this gay piece of equipment, you are "setting levels again ?" Play with a click wheres the band ? ...

Studio recording is an augmentation of reality always. Therefore, the studio engineer and producers are other session players in your band when you record. I have found that really good studio engineers arent
usually really good musicians, really good musicians generally suck at recording technique.

I am a musician. I have a relatively decent home studio with all my instruments plugged in all the time, fresh tape, fresh hdisk space, monitors and headphones ready to go. This way I can get an idea come down and print it to tape/disk. Then the idea doesnt go away. I use the studio stuff to recall grooves and melodic Ideas and make rough sounding demos of tunes. I also use it as a compositional tool to loop backgrounds and try out new bridges or just play with sound. As for producing killer quality stuff, I'd rather just print hot signals to tape/disk make sure the material is in tune and give it to a studmuffin engineer when I am signed and say "what can we do with this ?"
 
Well when it comes to recording I'm just
a novice that knows nothing, but I thought
that I read somewhere that sgt peppers was
recorded on two 4 tracks and that there are
only two kinds of music, good and bad, and
thats a matter of ones opinion and has nothing to do with engineers, producers, equipment or anything else, like when I got
so heavily into what kind of guitar equipment i was using and technique that I
forgot to listen.
 
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