E
El Barto
New member
Does anyone know of any great (and/or popular) artists that recorded and produced their own music? I know the Beach Boys did basicly...with Brian at the helm. Any others?
G
Garger
New member
Todd Rundgren
sonusman
Banned
Prince's later stuff, Van Halens 1984 through current (although they used Ted Templeton to produce here and there), Boston's 2nd and 3rd and 4th album....hell the list could go on....
Ed
Ed
Slackmaster2K
Gone
Well Ed, if you ever become a famous rock star and I see you on MTV braggin about how you engineered your own album...I'm going to release this post to the press.
Your attitude seems to be that a guitar player can't learn how to make a decent recording, even though you are a guitar player who makes a living doing recordings.
Perhaps one of the reasons you'll never hear anything that sounds like "the big boys" recordings on this BBS is that people are recording a Peavy amplifier with a single SM57 into a $75 mixer into a $20 16bit soundcard monitored via $40 headphones.... and they can only afford to spend 10 hours a week on music and are brand spankin new at all of this.
With your attitude, only a handfull of us should be here, and that excludes me. I should be practicing and paying someone $50 an hour to record me.
Engineering is just that, ENGINEERING. It is a technical craft that can be learned. It is not called Arting and doesn't require a special gift from above. Every one of us here is musically inclined for shit's sake and many of us have technical backgrounds.
We're talking about sound here. Whether you're the guy making the sound or recording the sound it's still just sound. And to say that a person can only understand one side of the picture is very narrow-minded and reeks of insecurity.
I used to pick on my friends who were very computer-literate when they would decide to take up programming. "I think I'm going to try to learn C next week." And I'd laugh and tell them how hard it is and how I had to take 3 years of high-level math and years of computational theory...algorithms/data structures...etc. I'd basically just blow my puff because I'd like to feel like I'm part of some special elite class. Then a few weeks later they'd show me a simple but working program in C. And I'd say, "hmm, you design needs work but...well, it does what you want it to do. Nevermind what I said before." Sure they didn't spend much time thinking about time/space complexity or proper design and most of their code was "stolen" from libraries written by guys with college degrees and certificates in this or that; but in the end it did what they wanted it to do; which is really the point. With more study and practice I'm sure they will be as good or better than me some day. But I don't care about that anymore, because it's the end product that is unique, not its indivual pieces.
You need to let your drummer play your guitar once in a while.
Slackmaster 2000
Your attitude seems to be that a guitar player can't learn how to make a decent recording, even though you are a guitar player who makes a living doing recordings.
Perhaps one of the reasons you'll never hear anything that sounds like "the big boys" recordings on this BBS is that people are recording a Peavy amplifier with a single SM57 into a $75 mixer into a $20 16bit soundcard monitored via $40 headphones.... and they can only afford to spend 10 hours a week on music and are brand spankin new at all of this.
With your attitude, only a handfull of us should be here, and that excludes me. I should be practicing and paying someone $50 an hour to record me.
Engineering is just that, ENGINEERING. It is a technical craft that can be learned. It is not called Arting and doesn't require a special gift from above. Every one of us here is musically inclined for shit's sake and many of us have technical backgrounds.
We're talking about sound here. Whether you're the guy making the sound or recording the sound it's still just sound. And to say that a person can only understand one side of the picture is very narrow-minded and reeks of insecurity.
I used to pick on my friends who were very computer-literate when they would decide to take up programming. "I think I'm going to try to learn C next week." And I'd laugh and tell them how hard it is and how I had to take 3 years of high-level math and years of computational theory...algorithms/data structures...etc. I'd basically just blow my puff because I'd like to feel like I'm part of some special elite class. Then a few weeks later they'd show me a simple but working program in C. And I'd say, "hmm, you design needs work but...well, it does what you want it to do. Nevermind what I said before." Sure they didn't spend much time thinking about time/space complexity or proper design and most of their code was "stolen" from libraries written by guys with college degrees and certificates in this or that; but in the end it did what they wanted it to do; which is really the point. With more study and practice I'm sure they will be as good or better than me some day. But I don't care about that anymore, because it's the end product that is unique, not its indivual pieces.
You need to let your drummer play your guitar once in a while.
Slackmaster 2000
S
Schmoe
New member
Whoa, Big Fella!!!!!! Your going about this all wrong. I feel most of the people here get into homerecording for a variety of reasons. Have you ever priced studio time? You ever noticed that most people on this website aren't big name acts? You yourself said that you don't like "popular music," this is one way for us artist to make music without being influenced from the "popular music" gods. Homerecording for some of us, is a way to record what we FEEL is good stuff and we don't have to go through all the musical "political" bullshit. So, we invest in some recording gear and record what we like doing. Have you ever downloaded some of the free music on the mp3 sites that are on this websites by unknown artist? Great stuff. If you think an unknown band will land a "big" contract just based on what material they think is great, dream on. Most bands can't afford to go into a studio, pay the prices, lay some good tracks, make copies, pass them out and hope somebody "big" is listening. That's where homerecording comes in, for some of us. Others just like playing period. We record ourselves so our friends hear us and so that we can hear ourselves also, it gives me a feeling of accomplishment because how many other people you know can write their own stuff?
Homerecording also gives an engineer the idea and "feel" across to him/her so that if you ever do get into a prostudio, they'll know what your looking for. An engineer is suppose to make you sound better, but not "find it for you." If you haven't found it by then, you shouldn't be in a prostudio.
As far as rocket science, you know, if you ever really get into the nuts and bolts of this whole process (I'm talking things like amps, impedance, S/N ratio, mic frequency ranges, calculation polarities, voltages, finding grounds etc. etc.) is pretty close to rocket science. You can ask 100 different engineers what song they think is the best engineered, you'll get 100 different answers.
...Food for the Brain.
Homerecording also gives an engineer the idea and "feel" across to him/her so that if you ever do get into a prostudio, they'll know what your looking for. An engineer is suppose to make you sound better, but not "find it for you." If you haven't found it by then, you shouldn't be in a prostudio.
As far as rocket science, you know, if you ever really get into the nuts and bolts of this whole process (I'm talking things like amps, impedance, S/N ratio, mic frequency ranges, calculation polarities, voltages, finding grounds etc. etc.) is pretty close to rocket science. You can ask 100 different engineers what song they think is the best engineered, you'll get 100 different answers.
...Food for the Brain.
Fishmed
Well-known member
I have worked with many novice bands and they do know what they want, but they are very naive of what actually can be done in a studio. Most band members are used to hearing their songs from within the group, which is often different from what other people hear. More times than not, they tend to want their music to sound like what they are use to hearing, and that is the "Stage" sound. Sometimes they think their live sounds are good, and they might be when playing live. But... when it comes to capturing that sound on tape, well that is a whole other thing.
Most of us with home studios try to get the best sound we can with our limited gear, and usually we are satisfied because we know that we have done the best we could do. When it comes to the professional studios, they take recording to a new level. Usually they have various gear that does the same thing but in different ways, and they know what their tools do and when or when not to use them. They have also worked with various bands and music, adding more knowledge to their experience. Most professional engineers or producers know what "sounds" are going to sell and what ones are not. They know what sonic balance is and how to achieve it. I agree with Ed, many people do not even consider that factor. The music industry is so flooded with recordings, that only the better produced ones float to the top. (There is no account of taste for the music itself.) There is more than just great production to get a recording to the top, but it is an important one.
The point about learning and running your home recording studio is about art, not necessarily money. Art in the way of your own music and your own production style. Recording is an art, in that there is no right or wrong way to do it. Now if you want more people to listen and enjoy your music, you will need to sacrifice your own tastes and produce more towards that mainstream sound. There are so many great musicians out there, some better than the ones who make it big, that never have the opportunity to go into a professional studio. The home studio is where they can express their talents for themselves, friends, and maybe even a few fans. In some ways, the home studio is more important than the professional studio. Without them, the world would miss out on some GREAT talented people.
[This message has been edited by Fishmed (edited 03-08-2000).]
Most of us with home studios try to get the best sound we can with our limited gear, and usually we are satisfied because we know that we have done the best we could do. When it comes to the professional studios, they take recording to a new level. Usually they have various gear that does the same thing but in different ways, and they know what their tools do and when or when not to use them. They have also worked with various bands and music, adding more knowledge to their experience. Most professional engineers or producers know what "sounds" are going to sell and what ones are not. They know what sonic balance is and how to achieve it. I agree with Ed, many people do not even consider that factor. The music industry is so flooded with recordings, that only the better produced ones float to the top. (There is no account of taste for the music itself.) There is more than just great production to get a recording to the top, but it is an important one.
The point about learning and running your home recording studio is about art, not necessarily money. Art in the way of your own music and your own production style. Recording is an art, in that there is no right or wrong way to do it. Now if you want more people to listen and enjoy your music, you will need to sacrifice your own tastes and produce more towards that mainstream sound. There are so many great musicians out there, some better than the ones who make it big, that never have the opportunity to go into a professional studio. The home studio is where they can express their talents for themselves, friends, and maybe even a few fans. In some ways, the home studio is more important than the professional studio. Without them, the world would miss out on some GREAT talented people.
[This message has been edited by Fishmed (edited 03-08-2000).]
sonusman
Banned
ElBarto,
My point is that I have been messing around with recording for over 10 years now. The last 3+ years have been intensive professionally. I have over 60k invested in equipment for a "project" studio.
I do not expect my setup to produce "radio quality" results. I do not even at this point expect myself to produce results that another engineer with a lot more experience and much better equipment can.
You know why home recording is so cool? Because you can learn what do and don't know about recording. You can learn enough to get your ideas on tape and listen to them to hopefully improve the SONG. You can bring your product along to a point where when you DO need a big time sounding recording, you don't go into the studio acting like a complete idiot and start trying to dictate things about the production that will ruin it. You will KNOW who you can trust and hire accordingly. THAT is the purpose of learning some recording on your own.
I for the most part had to give up on playing music to become an engineer. There just isn't enough hours in the day to work a full time job, learn about being an engineer in a field that constantly upgrades and gets better, and practice an instrument, and write good songs, and record them. Something has to give at some point. If you are lucky enough not to have to work a job, well, you have an extra 10 hours a day on your hands and could possibly pursue such an endevor. But, how are you going to afford the equipment? How are you going to pay the bills? You got a sugar momma supporting you? Then you could possbily become one of those "exceptions", because I can almost guarantee you that those guys where not trying to work, write, learn engineering, and record all at the same time.
So, you SHOULD learn to record. I am not against that at all!!! In fact, the artist's that come into my studio that have recorded their stuff at home generally get a much better sound on tape, and give me far less headaches while tracking and mixing than the artists that come in with little to no recording experience. They are hiring me because of the equipment list, and a trust that I know how to use the stuff, two things they don't have the benefit of, and don't care to invest in.
THAT is why you home record. In my last post though, I was saying that if you want to compete with the big boys, you will have little luck. You are against engineers that constantly get better from full time experience with engineering, and are contrantly using the most up to date gear. That is their life. So, just when you start getting a sound on tape that would have been killer 8 years ago, the big boys have upped the anty and produced something that will smoke it because of the experience and the better equipment.
People forget that while the low end of recording gear constantly get better, the top end does too. People forget also that not all the equipment that you buy at the Pro-Sumer level is really what it claims it is. Hell, Roland claims that their silly all in one boxes record "CD quality". Yeah, right. What CD quality?
Dude, I just invested into being able to record true 24 bit 48kHz files. I was mixing to a Fostex DAT machine before that. The Fostex has some pretty damn good 16 bit converters on it, but, while they may have been the shit a few years ago, they are really crappy sounding when compared to my new card on the computer. This is just one little example of an upgrade that made a significant difference in the sound. But you know what? I can make these 24 bit converters sound really bad when I try to convert the file down to 16 bit 44.1kHz for a CD. It comes down you dithering, and knowing when and how to dither. Still, I am just talking one thing that makes a huge difference in the sound quality.
I could go on and on about little things you can upgrade, all at a fairly sizable investment for most of us that will make huge differences in the sound quality of your recordings. I could document all day long things that I did before in production and now do much differently that make huge differences in the sound quality. That is my point. I spend lot's and lot's of time on this stuff, and have some pretty decent tools to work with. I have over $1300 invested into my monitoring system alone!!! That almost equals many home recordist's entire investment into gear for recording. Now, we are not talking about my $7k console, which is barely an entry level big time console. Or the thousands invested into little boxes that do very specific things that only make little differences. Each had it's own learning curve.
That is the point. I had to learn it all. I am still learning. On and on I learn. Getting better. But, I just don't claim at any point that I can produce recordings that rival big boy stuff. I get better "demo" recordings. But look at my investment in time and funds to produce killer sounding "demo's". I would need to invest 10 times what I did and spend another 3 years intensively on the new gear to start producing stuff that rivals the big boy stuff, but then, the big boys will have better toys then, thus upping the anty again.
Damn, I could go on and on. The point though is that be happy with getting decent sounding demo's with demo quality investments. Don't expect your little $10k investment to produce the kind of results that a $1,000,000 investment will get you.
Also, I have posted this before, and will say it again.
Most artist's just don't really know what sounds good anyway. They are incapable of producing a professional product. That is why the big time producers get paid the ungodly amounts of money they do, because they KNOW what sounds good. Argue that all you want, but my experience suggests that I am right here.
Also, many musicians suffer from some pretty significant hearing damage. Also, many musicians are way too impatient to learn how to record. Most every musician has too much ego to take constructive critisism improve to the level of many of the products we here and like that have big time production. Many musicians have something in them that makes them think that they sound much different then they actually do......
That is my take. Take it or leave it. I am not discouraging trying to learn this stuff, just suggesting that you must have a lot of patience and be prepared for many failures before you even get a somewhat decent product.
Ed
My point is that I have been messing around with recording for over 10 years now. The last 3+ years have been intensive professionally. I have over 60k invested in equipment for a "project" studio.
I do not expect my setup to produce "radio quality" results. I do not even at this point expect myself to produce results that another engineer with a lot more experience and much better equipment can.
You know why home recording is so cool? Because you can learn what do and don't know about recording. You can learn enough to get your ideas on tape and listen to them to hopefully improve the SONG. You can bring your product along to a point where when you DO need a big time sounding recording, you don't go into the studio acting like a complete idiot and start trying to dictate things about the production that will ruin it. You will KNOW who you can trust and hire accordingly. THAT is the purpose of learning some recording on your own.
I for the most part had to give up on playing music to become an engineer. There just isn't enough hours in the day to work a full time job, learn about being an engineer in a field that constantly upgrades and gets better, and practice an instrument, and write good songs, and record them. Something has to give at some point. If you are lucky enough not to have to work a job, well, you have an extra 10 hours a day on your hands and could possibly pursue such an endevor. But, how are you going to afford the equipment? How are you going to pay the bills? You got a sugar momma supporting you? Then you could possbily become one of those "exceptions", because I can almost guarantee you that those guys where not trying to work, write, learn engineering, and record all at the same time.
So, you SHOULD learn to record. I am not against that at all!!! In fact, the artist's that come into my studio that have recorded their stuff at home generally get a much better sound on tape, and give me far less headaches while tracking and mixing than the artists that come in with little to no recording experience. They are hiring me because of the equipment list, and a trust that I know how to use the stuff, two things they don't have the benefit of, and don't care to invest in.
THAT is why you home record. In my last post though, I was saying that if you want to compete with the big boys, you will have little luck. You are against engineers that constantly get better from full time experience with engineering, and are contrantly using the most up to date gear. That is their life. So, just when you start getting a sound on tape that would have been killer 8 years ago, the big boys have upped the anty and produced something that will smoke it because of the experience and the better equipment.
People forget that while the low end of recording gear constantly get better, the top end does too. People forget also that not all the equipment that you buy at the Pro-Sumer level is really what it claims it is. Hell, Roland claims that their silly all in one boxes record "CD quality". Yeah, right. What CD quality?
Dude, I just invested into being able to record true 24 bit 48kHz files. I was mixing to a Fostex DAT machine before that. The Fostex has some pretty damn good 16 bit converters on it, but, while they may have been the shit a few years ago, they are really crappy sounding when compared to my new card on the computer. This is just one little example of an upgrade that made a significant difference in the sound. But you know what? I can make these 24 bit converters sound really bad when I try to convert the file down to 16 bit 44.1kHz for a CD. It comes down you dithering, and knowing when and how to dither. Still, I am just talking one thing that makes a huge difference in the sound quality.
I could go on and on about little things you can upgrade, all at a fairly sizable investment for most of us that will make huge differences in the sound quality of your recordings. I could document all day long things that I did before in production and now do much differently that make huge differences in the sound quality. That is my point. I spend lot's and lot's of time on this stuff, and have some pretty decent tools to work with. I have over $1300 invested into my monitoring system alone!!! That almost equals many home recordist's entire investment into gear for recording. Now, we are not talking about my $7k console, which is barely an entry level big time console. Or the thousands invested into little boxes that do very specific things that only make little differences. Each had it's own learning curve.
That is the point. I had to learn it all. I am still learning. On and on I learn. Getting better. But, I just don't claim at any point that I can produce recordings that rival big boy stuff. I get better "demo" recordings. But look at my investment in time and funds to produce killer sounding "demo's". I would need to invest 10 times what I did and spend another 3 years intensively on the new gear to start producing stuff that rivals the big boy stuff, but then, the big boys will have better toys then, thus upping the anty again.
Damn, I could go on and on. The point though is that be happy with getting decent sounding demo's with demo quality investments. Don't expect your little $10k investment to produce the kind of results that a $1,000,000 investment will get you.
Also, I have posted this before, and will say it again.
Most artist's just don't really know what sounds good anyway. They are incapable of producing a professional product. That is why the big time producers get paid the ungodly amounts of money they do, because they KNOW what sounds good. Argue that all you want, but my experience suggests that I am right here.
Also, many musicians suffer from some pretty significant hearing damage. Also, many musicians are way too impatient to learn how to record. Most every musician has too much ego to take constructive critisism improve to the level of many of the products we here and like that have big time production. Many musicians have something in them that makes them think that they sound much different then they actually do......
That is my take. Take it or leave it. I am not discouraging trying to learn this stuff, just suggesting that you must have a lot of patience and be prepared for many failures before you even get a somewhat decent product.
Ed
Slackmaster2K
Gone
I too agree that a person cannot wake up one day and say, "I think I'll make a professional quality recording!"
There is a lot to learn. My point is simply that it is not impossible to learn, and it is unhealthy to have the attitude that you shouldn't even try to learn.
The biggest benefit to recording yourself and putting all of your efforts into yourself, is that you can hear what you want in your head and you can strive to achieve that quality on your own terms. You don't have to learn how to record as wide a variety of styles and techniques because you're simply recording yourself. You know how you play and you know how you want it to sound on tape.
My goal is not to be in a band. My goal is not to work soley on playing. My goal is not to become a studio engineer. My goal is to create AND record my own music.
Some day it will happen. Some day I will sit back and say, "holy shit, I did it." Something will sound exactly as I had hoped it would. It will be a great day.
Slackmaster 2000
P.S. As I clicked to reply to this message I noticed that Ed's last response popped up and I haven't read it yet. Pretend that this message is right after fishmed's
There is a lot to learn. My point is simply that it is not impossible to learn, and it is unhealthy to have the attitude that you shouldn't even try to learn.
The biggest benefit to recording yourself and putting all of your efforts into yourself, is that you can hear what you want in your head and you can strive to achieve that quality on your own terms. You don't have to learn how to record as wide a variety of styles and techniques because you're simply recording yourself. You know how you play and you know how you want it to sound on tape.
My goal is not to be in a band. My goal is not to work soley on playing. My goal is not to become a studio engineer. My goal is to create AND record my own music.
Some day it will happen. Some day I will sit back and say, "holy shit, I did it." Something will sound exactly as I had hoped it would. It will be a great day.
Slackmaster 2000
P.S. As I clicked to reply to this message I noticed that Ed's last response popped up and I haven't read it yet. Pretend that this message is right after fishmed's
L
lazyboy
New member
J. Mascis from Disnosaur Jr. has produced all of their records, I think. In fact he did most of their album Green Mind all by himself. Guided by Voices have done most of their records on 4 track tape. Kevin Shields from My Bloody Valentine produced their records. I think these bands are great (particularly MBV) and they are (or were) all on major labels, but I don't think any of them have had any gold records or any major commercial success. I suppose its better this way because the really great bands get to avoid the MTV hype of bullshit acts like Kid Rock, Limp Bizkit, and Third Eye Blind. But I'm getting off the subject...
E
El Barto
New member
Yeah, I hate popular music, especially the bands you listed. I'm 17, some may find that surprising, considering most kids my age listen to that junk and watch MTV regularly. I never listen to the radio, always my CDs...if I listen to the radio, it's classic rock or oldies, that's real music. I've heard Dinosaur Jr. and GBV...I liked GBV but not Dinosaur as much...the main reason why I asked is because you usually hear about your favorite band "going into the studio and recording," usually meaning someone else is doing it. You don't often hear about bands producing their own stuff. I wanna produce my band's music, but I also thought it would be cool to go into a studio and do it.
ruebarb
New member
Art Alekiais of Everclear has been calling all of the production shots on their albums (with an engineer like Andy Wallace) - You have to make the distinction between Engineer and Producer. For example, a Producer like Mutt Lange, who gets his grubby hands into every song (and Shania Twain) and takes a songwriting credit for arranging music is different than Chris Potter, who basically ran tape during the recording of the Verve's "Urban Hymns" while the band experimented up the wazoo. If by producing, you mean sat behind the mixing board, well, you won't see as much of that
E
El Barto
New member
I mean engineering then...woops. Heh! I always get those two mixed up.
N
Nate
New member
Both Brian Eno and Bob Mould come to mind as being VERY hands-on with their music. You should check out "Copper Blue" (w/Sugar), "Workbook" and "Bob Mould" from BM- the guitar on these are INCREDIBLE! For Eno, you could try "Taking Tiger Mountain" and "Here Come the Warm Jets" for more rock-oriented stuff.
sonusman
Banned
I am going to state this right now.
IN MOST CASES, IT IS SONIC SUICIDE FOR AN ARTIST TO TRY TO ENGINEER THEIR OWN RECORDINGS. ALSO, IN MOST CASES, UNLESS YOU HAVE TONS OF EXPERIENCE, IT IS MUSICAL SUICIDE FOR AN ARTIST TO TRY TO PRODUCE THEIR OWND SONGS.
Sorry for the shouting, but, I have to shout this stuff sometimes to get the point a cross.
You want to know the best mixes I have done? The best recordings I have done? The ones where the artist really had little to do with the production end of it. Almost always the artist on these recordings will agree.
With almost every client I have worked with, by the end of their recording, they were totally depending upon me for production!!! Instead of them saying "that is what I want", they where asking "hey Ed, how is that?" If I didn't like it, they changed it to something that I do like.
Now, you need to have some clear ideas about what a Producer, and an Engineer is SUPPOSED to do in a recording project. I will not go into that here, but you can read an article I wrote on that subject on my website at www.echostarstudio.com/Info.html . Look for the article, Recordings That Rock.
Once you have established a good working relationship with a good producer/engineer, you will find that they have very similar production goals in mind for your song. Thing is, they will ususally have far more experience in getting that sound for you than you will. They will actaully KNOW what sounds right.
That is why the big boy recordings blow away most everything I have ever heard come from anyone, including myself, on this BBS. Mostly, the big boy recordings have very competent engineers and producers, and mixing engineers, and mastering engineers, all with the best tools to work with joining forces to create that big, fat, warm, detailed sound you hear.
You wanna know a secret though? I bet that if you talked to these artists and got them the drop their petty egos, they would admit that they had little to do with the production of their CD. They would admit that all the people involved in the production got it to sound that way.
Also, the other thing you don't ever hear is all the old crap recordings these artists did, where they played a big role in the production. So, even if you do name off one of the few artists that CAN produce and/or engineer themselves, you would find that they spent years working on it to become a full fledge recording engineer and/or producer. But you don't ever hear all the really miserable attempts at getting a good sound. You also don't ever hear about all the time they spent with another producer and engineer who actaully knew what they where doing stealing all their tricks. Yes, stealing. I learn from other engineers and producers all the time. At least the ones with experience and dedication to their craft.
That is my two cents worth. Take it or leave it. But please don't slam me with a bunch of useless responces saying how so and so produces themselves, and so and so engineered their own stuff. They are the very few exceptions, and far from the norm in recording big time sounding CD's.
Ed Rei
Echo Star Studio www.echostarstudio.com
IN MOST CASES, IT IS SONIC SUICIDE FOR AN ARTIST TO TRY TO ENGINEER THEIR OWN RECORDINGS. ALSO, IN MOST CASES, UNLESS YOU HAVE TONS OF EXPERIENCE, IT IS MUSICAL SUICIDE FOR AN ARTIST TO TRY TO PRODUCE THEIR OWND SONGS.
Sorry for the shouting, but, I have to shout this stuff sometimes to get the point a cross.
You want to know the best mixes I have done? The best recordings I have done? The ones where the artist really had little to do with the production end of it. Almost always the artist on these recordings will agree.
With almost every client I have worked with, by the end of their recording, they were totally depending upon me for production!!! Instead of them saying "that is what I want", they where asking "hey Ed, how is that?" If I didn't like it, they changed it to something that I do like.
Now, you need to have some clear ideas about what a Producer, and an Engineer is SUPPOSED to do in a recording project. I will not go into that here, but you can read an article I wrote on that subject on my website at www.echostarstudio.com/Info.html . Look for the article, Recordings That Rock.
Once you have established a good working relationship with a good producer/engineer, you will find that they have very similar production goals in mind for your song. Thing is, they will ususally have far more experience in getting that sound for you than you will. They will actaully KNOW what sounds right.
That is why the big boy recordings blow away most everything I have ever heard come from anyone, including myself, on this BBS. Mostly, the big boy recordings have very competent engineers and producers, and mixing engineers, and mastering engineers, all with the best tools to work with joining forces to create that big, fat, warm, detailed sound you hear.
You wanna know a secret though? I bet that if you talked to these artists and got them the drop their petty egos, they would admit that they had little to do with the production of their CD. They would admit that all the people involved in the production got it to sound that way.
Also, the other thing you don't ever hear is all the old crap recordings these artists did, where they played a big role in the production. So, even if you do name off one of the few artists that CAN produce and/or engineer themselves, you would find that they spent years working on it to become a full fledge recording engineer and/or producer. But you don't ever hear all the really miserable attempts at getting a good sound. You also don't ever hear about all the time they spent with another producer and engineer who actaully knew what they where doing stealing all their tricks. Yes, stealing. I learn from other engineers and producers all the time. At least the ones with experience and dedication to their craft.
That is my two cents worth. Take it or leave it. But please don't slam me with a bunch of useless responces saying how so and so produces themselves, and so and so engineered their own stuff. They are the very few exceptions, and far from the norm in recording big time sounding CD's.
Ed Rei
Echo Star Studio www.echostarstudio.com
E
El Barto
New member
So what's the point of learning about home recording if I'm going to end up having to submit to a professional producer and engineer? Maybe those artists actually do have talent and know what they're doing. I know it's a difficult thing to master, but it's not rocket science. Who knows more about the sound you want than you yourself? You can find it yourself of course, an engineer just might be able to find it easier.
Slackmaster2K
Gone
Ed,
Sometimes you come off a little harsh so I appologize for misinterpreting your intent.
I agree with you about needing good equipment...but I don't agree with you about keeping up with the Jones'. What if the best quality album I can think of was recorded in 1975? Maybe I don't have "the ear" but I certainly know what sounds good to me. If I was to create something that sounded as good to me as Pink Floyd's Wish You Were Here album then I'd be one happy mofo. That'll never happen though.
I guess we're talking about two different things. You're talking about competing with guys on the radio and I'm talking about competing with myself...when will something I create sound "exactly" like it does in my head?
Slackmaster 2000
Sometimes you come off a little harsh so I appologize for misinterpreting your intent.
I agree with you about needing good equipment...but I don't agree with you about keeping up with the Jones'. What if the best quality album I can think of was recorded in 1975? Maybe I don't have "the ear" but I certainly know what sounds good to me. If I was to create something that sounded as good to me as Pink Floyd's Wish You Were Here album then I'd be one happy mofo. That'll never happen though.
I guess we're talking about two different things. You're talking about competing with guys on the radio and I'm talking about competing with myself...when will something I create sound "exactly" like it does in my head?
Slackmaster 2000
Fishmed
Well-known member
Slack,
I am not trying to be defensive here, but on the topic of recording various artisit and music I must clearify myself. When an engineer is able to record a variety of people and music, they get to push their equipment to new limits and new directions more. So... when a band comes in to record, the engineer will have more or less learned the in's and out's of his gear; therefore, when it comes to tracking, he will know what gear and settings will come the closest to the best sound for the situation.
I am not trying to be defensive here, but on the topic of recording various artisit and music I must clearify myself. When an engineer is able to record a variety of people and music, they get to push their equipment to new limits and new directions more. So... when a band comes in to record, the engineer will have more or less learned the in's and out's of his gear; therefore, when it comes to tracking, he will know what gear and settings will come the closest to the best sound for the situation.
E
El Barto
New member
It is rather discouraging reading that, even though it may not be your intent. Alright, the following may sound like a naive dream but take it how you want it. I believe there's a level of quality a recording hits whether it be musical quality (the actual song) or sound quality that makes it listenable. And making it listenable makes it likeable after hearing it. I believe that quality can be achieved by an artist and his little 4-track and his mics and guitar, and his buddies and their drums and bass guitar etc. etc. If someone can write really good music, write a really good song, who gives a fuck if it's not engineered by Andy Wallace or Steve Albini or even George Martin. If it sounds good, that's the beginning, and I believe in myself (and my equipment) that I can make it sound good. Millions of people still listen to classic rock and oldies and older recordings. Why? Because the music is amazing. Maybe at the time "Nevermind the Bollocks" by the Sex Pistols could have been considered good quality. I was listening to it yesterday, and the quality is rather dull, but the album kicks royal ass. Everybody has their fans. To me there's three or four layers of music "success." The Garage Phase, the Local Phase, the Underground/Indie Phase, and the Mainstream Phase. How many people here have heard (of) Frank Black & the Catholics? He's the former frontman of the Pixies and this is his new band (as of 1993). He's amazing, and he has fans around the world, but you're not going to see him on MTV, you're not going to see him handing out/receiving an award at the Grammys. He's part of the Indie scene, and intends to stay that way. I don't care if my band gets on MTV, I don't care if we don't make a billion dollars, or are heard on every station of the radio every 5 minutes. I care that I feel I'm doing a good thing, making good music, and have people that enjoy listening to that music. It's kind of egotistical or conceited to me for a band to put out an album and say "Wow, that's the best fucking album I've ever heard." It's up to your fans (no matter how many in numbers) to decide if what you did was good or not. And I'm not going to use their word to dictate what I'm gonna do next...I'm gonna do what I want to do. Do you think the Beatles knew what they were getting into? Do you think they felt they were better than anyone else when they first started off? Hell, they did the same thing a lot of bands are doing, they played covers of other bands. And wrote their own music. And now (or then) they are the greatest band that ever walked this earth. Do you think they played what people wanted the hear? Hell no, they even stopped touring after some time cause they were sick of it. And they completely changed. They did what they wanted to do, not what everyone wanted them to do. The list of bands that have done this goes on...every band has evolved. The point here is that they evolve because they're playing the music they want, and not what people want to hear. I think I got off on 100 different subjects here, so I think I'll just click "Submit Reply" now.
sonusman
Banned
Good, everyone is just supporting what I mean here!!!
Here is the very simple point.
If you use less than stellar recording gear, and don't have mega experience, great!!! Record away....
But, don't go posting silly threads asking why your recordings don't sound as good as so and so.....Your recordings WILL sound as good as so and so IF you have equipment on the same caliber, and engineers/producers of similar skills as so and so did.
That is my point.
Ed
Here is the very simple point.
If you use less than stellar recording gear, and don't have mega experience, great!!! Record away....
But, don't go posting silly threads asking why your recordings don't sound as good as so and so.....Your recordings WILL sound as good as so and so IF you have equipment on the same caliber, and engineers/producers of similar skills as so and so did.
That is my point.
Ed
L
lazyboy
New member
This whole site is about building a home recording community, so I get a bit pissed when somebody yells down from the ivory tower that you just can't do it yourself. Please understand that I know I'll never achieve the technical production results that cost the bigshots millions, I don't give a shit, if i did i wouldn't be involved with home recording. For some of us DIY is our way of life, its not what we're doing in the meantime until we're rich and famous or until we're discovered. There is a scene for this kind of thing and for the most part it has a vitality you won't find anywhere else. Sure its easy to hear a flawed record, but take your ears out of physics and electronics books, great production does not make a bad record good. Likewise, more production and engineering will not necessarily make a record any better. The new technology and affordibility of recording gear is supposed to empower musicians, to give more creative voices an opportunity to be heard, something that is desperately needed today.
A couple of other things:
There is a difference between a home studio and a pro-studio in the home.
Being a gearwhore is unbecoming.
When somebody tells you that home recording cannot possibly give you good results, find out how he makes a living!
Sonusman, I know I've been harsh, sorry. We generally appreciate your advice, you've surely reached a level of expertise in your field that I will not. I just fail to see the benefit of this kind of advice on a home recording website.
A couple of other things:
There is a difference between a home studio and a pro-studio in the home.
Being a gearwhore is unbecoming.
When somebody tells you that home recording cannot possibly give you good results, find out how he makes a living!
Sonusman, I know I've been harsh, sorry. We generally appreciate your advice, you've surely reached a level of expertise in your field that I will not. I just fail to see the benefit of this kind of advice on a home recording website.