satin vs gloss

[drossfile]

ok, so i have the guitar, but i've learned that all this hand-wringing was for naught!!! this 12-string actually has NO finish on the back or sides, and the front is "hand-rubbed urethane." not sure what i think of this...

this is the one i just bought:

http://www.music123.com/Martin-D12X1-12-String-Solid-Top-Acoustic-Guitar-513319-i1168509.Music123

i do have the 30-day option, and i'm wondering--is this guitar really any good? i mean, the sound and playablility is fantastic, and i don't need any inlays, gold plating, etc--just a good sounding guitar.

i'm just worried, looking at the listed features here that i may have bought a substandard guitar. HPL. uh-oh.

any thoughts?

 

[mikeeb]

I would not be scared. If it plays great and sounds great, the only thing holding the guitar back is you. As long as you take care of the guitar the way it should be taken care of, such as cleaning it, Humidifying it, and seeing how far you can throw it, it should be fine!

 

[acidrock]

i'm just worried, looking at the listed features here that i may have bought a substandard guitar. HPL. uh-oh.

any thoughts?

Let's see,when you played it you liked it.
When you heard it you liked it.
When you read about it you weren't so sure?
Would you feel better having spent three times the amount on something that read better?

 

[didgijimmy]

ok, so i have the guitar, but i've learned that all this hand-wringing was for naught!!! this 12-string actually has NO finish on the back or sides, and the front is "hand-rubbed urethane." not sure what i think of this...

this is the one i just bought:

http://www.music123.com/Martin-D12X1-12-String-Solid-Top-Acoustic-Guitar-513319-i1168509.Music123

i do have the 30-day option, and i'm wondering--is this guitar really any good? i mean, the sound and playablility is fantastic, and i don't need any inlays, gold plating, etc--just a good sounding guitar.

i'm just worried, looking at the listed features here that i may have bought a substandard guitar. HPL. uh-oh.

any thoughts?

Well, this is a particularly interesting case of Buyers Remorse, given the early onset. Nah, seriously you tried out like a gagillion different guitars from what I gathered in your other thread. What else would you find? And.....You know what this means right? Youve got like 1400 left to spend on a steller electric axe!! Its win win.

 

[drossfile]

Well, this is a particularly interesting case of Buyers Remorse, given the early onset. Nah, seriously you tried out like a gagillion different guitars from what I gathered in your other thread. What else would you find? And.....You know what this means right? Youve got like 1400 left to spend on a steller electric axe!! Its win win.

heh, thanks for that. i just saw the "hpl" and kinda freaked out. it never occurred to me that it wouldn't be solid wood.

anyway, i don't exactly have 1400 left, since i didn't have the full $2k yet. i do, however have about $700 left after buying the guitar, a nice case, chromatic tuner, guitar honey, a humidifier, and a set of strings. i'm sure i can scare up a good axe for that. in fact, i'm really leaning towards the schecters now.

now pardon me whilst i go play my new 12-string!!!

 

[YeshuasFan]

ok, so i have the guitar, but i've learned that all this hand-wringing was for naught!!! this 12-string actually has NO finish on the back or sides, and the front is "hand-rubbed urethane." not sure what i think of this...

this is the one i just bought:

http://www.music123.com/Martin-D12X1-12-String-Solid-Top-Acoustic-Guitar-513319-i1168509.Music123

i do have the 30-day option, and i'm wondering--is this guitar really any good? i mean, the sound and playablility is fantastic, and i don't need any inlays, gold plating, etc--just a good sounding guitar.

i'm just worried, looking at the listed features here that i may have bought a substandard guitar. HPL. uh-oh.

any thoughts?

"Hand-rubbed urethane"? Someone with more experience correct me if I'm wrong, but that sounds like advertising fertilizer material to me.... I've used urethane finishes on home furniture refinishing and it usually dries to a gloss without buffing or rubbing.

 

[drossfile]

Let's see,when you played it you liked it.
When you heard it you liked it.
When you read about it you weren't so sure?
Would you feel better having spent three times the amount on something that read better?

i've never been so happy to be pwned in all my life!!!

thank you for this post. feeling much better after having played it for a bit. man this thing really does sing. you're absolutely right--what's on paper might not look that great, but the sound does not lie!!!

 

[ggunn]

ok, so i have the guitar, but i've learned that all this hand-wringing was for naught!!! this 12-string actually has NO finish on the back or sides...

Are you sure about that? I'm not saying that it's impossible, but I sure have never seen an unfinished guitar for sale. The wood would be very susceptible to warpage and staining.

 

[drossfile]

Are you sure about that? I'm not saying that it's impossible, but I sure have never seen an unfinished guitar for sale. The wood would be very susceptible to warpage and staining.

check the link i posted for that particular guitar. the reason the sides and back aren't finished is that theyre HPL, not solid wood. the top is solid spruce, so it has the "urethane" finish.

 

[Light]

the guitar guru at my local shop told me yesterday that satin finishes on acoustic guitars don't seal the wood properly and will cause the instrument to deteriorate over time.

is this true???

No, there is nothing wrong with satin finishes. OIL finishes are a problem, but that's not the same thing at all. You need to have a hard finish to protect the wood, but it can be either satin or glossy. In point of fact, they are both the same finish - they are just polished differently. Or rather, glossy finishes are polished, and satin are not (its actually a bit more complex than that...)

edit: i'm not 100% sure if the finish on this particular guitar is satin or matte, nor am i sure if it makes a difference either way.

Same thing, different name.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[Light]

Even if it did bud would not be expensive or difficult to get few coats of satin lacquer applied to it in a few years,...

Ah, NO.

Finish work, when done right, is ALWAYS expensive - it's a lot of work. Also, over-spraying like that will knock off about half of the value of your guitar, and touch up on satin finishes is always a questionable process. Recreating the exact degree of "satin" is rather difficult.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[Light]

ok, so i have the guitar, but i've learned that all this hand-wringing was for naught!!! this 12-string actually has NO finish on the back or sides, and the front is "hand-rubbed urethane." not sure what i think of this...

this is the one i just bought:

http://www.music123.com/Martin-D12X1-12-String-Solid-Top-Acoustic-Guitar-513319-i1168509.Music123

i do have the 30-day option, and i'm wondering--is this guitar really any good? i mean, the sound and playablility is fantastic, and i don't need any inlays, gold plating, etc--just a good sounding guitar.

i'm just worried, looking at the listed features here that i may have bought a substandard guitar. HPL. uh-oh.

any thoughts?

I don't like the HPL guitars. It looks as though yours has an actual wood top, so it won't sound as much like rubber bands as most of them. However, they are rather prone to a variety of problems. The bridges like to come off, the tops and backs don't like to stick to the sides and - somewhat bizarrely, since most of them don't have wood tops - they are excessively prone to humidity problems. The problem is that, in order to make them sound almost decent, they under-brace them rather seriously. While the top doesn't change with humidity, the braces do, and since there are so few of them they just kind of collapse. They are also really unpleasant to work on, since you have to use cyanoacrylate glue for everything.

All that being said, if you love the guitar, you should just play it. Make sure to keep it humidified in the winter, and have fun.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[Light]

Are you sure about that? I'm not saying that it's impossible, but I sure have never seen an unfinished guitar for sale. The wood would be very susceptible to warpage and staining.

It's true - the back and sides aren't made of wood. They are made of something not too different from Formica.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[drossfile]

thanks for stopping by and addressing my various concerns, light. i truly appreciate it. i think i will keep the guitar, as it's fulfilled a current need. i'll be looking at buying an heirloom quality 6-string in the coming years, but for now i think i've made the right decision.

i already have a humidifier in it, which will come out in the next few weeks i'm sure.

thanks again.

 

[castlerock]

I could leave a piece of totally unfinished wood out for a hundred years and it wouldn't deteriorate unless I got it wet or exposed it to the elements.This sounds like total horseshit to me.
I think he's trying to get you to buy somthing more expensive.I'm betting if you searched a bunch of forums for satin or matte finishes this would never come up.
I own a satin Seagull twelve string,I know people who've had satin guitars and I've never once heard of this.

not total horse shit. years ago i bought a seagull acoustic to drag around offshore...the top has some sort of alcohol based finish or some such. the humidity has not been kind and it's been wet quite a few times (sweat from drinks dripping on it). it still plays and sounds fine but you can see where the grain raised from the moisture. i'll show you at jamfest.

 

[acidrock]

not total horse shit. years ago i bought a seagull acoustic to drag around offshore...the top has some sort of alcohol based finish or some such. the humidity has not been kind and it's been wet quite a few times (sweat from drinks dripping on it). it still plays and sounds fine but you can see where the grain raised from the moisture. i'll show you at jamfest.

unless I got it wet

 

[acidrock]

i'll be looking at buying an heirloom quality 6-string in the coming years, but for now i think i've made the right decision.

I tell myself this all the time.Aside from money there are a few things keeping me from doing it.One,I have a sentimental attachment to my six string,two I'm afraid to own anything nice because I'll probably just wreck it,three....when I find it I'll know.

I think you made the right decision as you'll probably end up playing your six more than your twelve.

 

[muttley600]

the guitar guru at my local shop told me yesterday that satin finishes on acoustic guitars don't seal the wood properly and will cause the instrument to deteriorate over time.

is this true???

Just back from a week away so just picking up on this one and thought I'd tidy it up a bit.

First, No it isn't true. It's complete bullshit.

This is pretty much correct and backed up with 30 years finishing experience here, so thats 45 plus in total..

If 15+ years of refinishing experience qualifies me to adress this... Today's finishing materals for gloss or satin finishes are essentialy the same. Satin or matte finishes are obtained by adding a dulling chemical to the finish materal before the finish is applied, often the "flat" finish is only applied in the final coat of finish with several layers of regular (gloss) finish underneath. It doesn't matter if the finish is poly, lacquer, acrylic, or a catalized varnish, matte finishes are made the same way. If applies propperly there should be no difference in the durability or the lasting quality of the finish compaired to the same materal with a high gloss or matte finish. Now to dispell the myth, gloss finishes do not require any more labor than matte or satin finishes. I am making reference to modern comercial finishes, there may be a difference in some of the custom or hand rubbed finishes on some botique guitars but on the average guitar (production models) the quality of a sitin finish is just as good and should last as long as a gloss finish.

Just one small quibble "varnish" is a separate term and isn't in any way a catalysed or precat finish, it's more correctly an oil or spirit based finish made of organic resins and oils. French polish or shellac as an example and so are most of the finishes used on violins in days of old and to this day. The term varnish is often used otherwise so it's a small quibble.

The particles added to the finish are called "solids" and in critical applications are described as a percentage to indicate the degree of matt or satin. They act by diffusing light in much the same way as reflective particles can be added to give a metallic finish.

A gloss finish cut back to give a matt finish is just that. After an indeterminate amount of time through use you will have a part gloss, part flat finish depending on the hardness of the finish and the amount of wear.

 

[muttley600]

not total horse shit. years ago i bought a seagull acoustic to drag around offshore...the top has some sort of alcohol based finish or some such. the humidity has not been kind and it's been wet quite a few times (sweat from drinks dripping on it). it still plays and sounds fine but you can see where the grain raised from the moisture. i'll show you at jamfest.

Having grain on a spruce top do that is often not simply a case of the type of finish. The nature of the grain on spruce can facilitate what is called "drop in". The early wood growth or lighter coloured grain rings are far softer than the late wood growth or darker rings. They are also more prone to shrinking and can do so regardless of the finish. If it's holding up then you should be good.

 

[stevieb]

Weighing in late, here, but I have a hypothosys.

Satin finishes are often put on as thin as possible, so that the finish will not dull the resonance of the wood any more than is absoloutly necessary and still provide some protection to the wood. Gloss finishes are, by necessity, thicker than satin finishes (I know there are exceptions to these rules, but there always are exceptions.) Thus, the satin finishes wear thru sooner (not faster- wear rate per mil of finish thickness is probably the same) and players of those guitars are understandably horrified, and think the finish is "soft."

Just a hypothysis- untested at this point, and frankly, I lack the resources to test it. Chances are, a field survey of existing guitars already in the hands of consumers would probably be the best way to test this, if someone is interested.