Roll Off Frequencies

[bucchild]

I know it's been posted before, but I couldn't seem to find it in my searches....

I know it's often suggested to roll off below a certain frequency because anything at those low frequencies just sounds muddy....If I'm not mistaken, it's suggested to roll off below 50 Hz. Is this right??? Or is it a lower/higher frequency???

Similarly, I've also heard to roll off above a high frequency. I don't even know where to start. I know there's no "industry standard" or anything, but suggestions for a good starting point for both low and high end roll offs would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

 

[bennychico11]

it generally depends on the instrument on that track. if you've got a guitar track usually it's everything below 60Hz because the lowest string on a guitar doesn't really go below that. of course a bass track or a bass drum track would be lower so they aren't too boomy. I usually get rid of highs only on really low instruments because the upper harmonics on those don't affect really high. Now, if you're talking about doing it on the overall final mix....you just have to listen. If you have a real bass heavy mix, sure get rid of the lown in final mix down. This will help it not be too annoying on car systems or ones that have a subwoofer not tuned properly (you know...the people who want really loud subwoofers so they can feel the bass from miles away).

 

[ssscientist]

Let me try adding a different perspective on this question -- are you self-mastering mixes destined for a CD release? If so, I have had great success rolling off everything below 30hz with as severe a 'falling off a cliff' style shelf as I can find. CD's don't reproduce anything under 30hz accuractely enough for you to include them in your mix because what comes back from the duplicator with a lumpy low low end may affect the frequencies all the way up the spectrum.

On the other hand if you are going to let a professional mastering engineer have a crack at mastering your mixes (a good idea for many reasons - do a search on 'mastering' above) then you'll be wanting to leave the frequencies and the dynamic range pretty much as-is with the exceptions of getting the mixes smoothed out. That doesn't mean being afraid of using compression or processing or EQ on individual instruments - just stay far away from the 'normalize' function when you're thru...

As far as the high end goes, if it hasn't been unduly hyped with lots of EQ going in you probably won't need to mess with it coming back.

 

[chessrock]

As a general rule, you can probably do an 80 hz low-cut on just about everything that's not a kick drum or a bass guitar.

As far as the high cut goes . . . if I'm using a condenser mic on the track, then chances are there is stuff going on above 16 khz that I want, so it wouldn't make sense to roll it off.

And if I'm using a dynamic on it, then chances are the mic isn't going to be able to reproduce anything meaningful above 16 khz anyway (and if it does, it isn't likely to be peaky or annoying), so it would be redundant.

 

[Cloneboy Studio]

Maybe I'm weird but rather than rolling off the entire mix, I will usually roll off each instrument specifically when I'm in the audio editing/clean up/assembly phase of mixing (doing this last before I actually start to mix properly).

Guidelines (usual caveat applies, this is heavily biased towards my twisted idea of what a good mix is and the role certain instruments should play... I for one don't like my guitars to have as much low end as nearly the rest of the world, and certainly a metric fugton less than your average Joe "Mesa/Boogies rule" Guitar Player Kewl D00d wants on there):

Kick: start a gentle roll off around 70hz

Bass guitar: start a gentle roll off around 60hz

Vocals: usually I'll start a roll off around 180hz... not much down past 100hz except noise gremlins and thumps.

Guitar: usually roll off about 90hz

Snare: usually roll off about 100hz, but will give it a solid 100hz boost to make sure there's some solidity... not much below that that I want though

High Hat: usually roll off around 250hz... I like sibilant and light 'hats

Cymbals: usually roll off around 200hz... I don't like overly bangy cymbals either

Toms: usually roll off around 200-100hz depending on the kit and drum

Synths: depends on their role in the song--for bass around 60hz, for strings/pads usually around 100-600hz. (Pads around 600hz-ish so their low end doesn't obscure the low end of the mix... the purpose of a pad usually isn't to provide low end, but tonal interest or upper harmonic thickening--however if the role of the pad is bass then I'll do it more around 60-100hz).

As you can see I try to keep my low end fairly uncluttered. I'm also a big believer in the bass guitar being the lowest pitched instrument in a rock mix--rather than the kick drum. I like bass guitar and feel that it is underrepresented in most mixes. If you want a veritable wall of sound, turn the guitars down a bit, stereo pan them out a little more, notch up the kick and snare a tad, and bring the bass guitar to the middle of the mix instead of wayyyyy in the back.

Strangely enough I was never a bass player--I started on guitar and switched to being the biggest analog synth geek I know. But the way I see it the bass guitar is the heart of a good rock song.

 

[darnold]

For the Self Mastering, like said above roll at about 30Hz. I believe it was me who was recommending the 16Khz a while back. Ive only found that to work well if your doing thick music. Its sometimes a good idea because from what ive learned about the nyquist theory is that alot of those frequencies arnt good, so it might be a good idea to at least roll them off slightly.

Just try them both and see what you like. I tried a test a while ago with a client and made two copies of there work, one with the hi cut at 16Khz and one without it. They ended up liking the one without it more and i had no complaints. Im no mastering engineer and that kind of thing should maybe be left to one.

Anyway, just try out a few things.

Danny

 

[guttadaj]

As you can see I try to keep my low end fairly uncluttered. I'm also a big believer in the bass guitar being the lowest pitched instrument in a rock mix--rather than the kick drum. I like bass guitar and feel that it is underrepresented in most mixes. If you want a veritable wall of sound, turn the guitars down a bit, stereo pan them out a little more, notch up the kick and snare a tad, and bring the bass guitar to the middle of the mix instead of wayyyyy in the back.

Strangely enough I was never a bass player--I started on guitar and switched to being the biggest analog synth geek I know. But the way I see it the bass guitar is the heart of a good rock song.

Being a bass player myself, this brought a tear of joy to my eyes... I love you, Cloneboy!

 

[Cloneboy Studio]

Being a bass player myself, this brought a tear of joy to my eyes... I love you, Cloneboy!

I rarely tell the bands my mixing priority--and never let them peek at where the volume levels are set (especially f'ing guitarists) because they will want to mix by "sight" (i.e. where their volume level is at) rather than by SOUND.

Seems ridiculous but a lot of people mix this way, and almost every band glances to see "who's the loudest" with the guitarist always crying if they aren't loud enough.

For me, a lot of the low end of the guitar part is being supplied by the bass like it should be.

I'm the sneaky turd type of producer--I will change a guitarist's amp settings if I think they are duff w/out telling them I'm doing so. It's super hilarious when after all is said and done when they remark how great they sound afterwards and then you tell them that the "bass 10, mids 0, treble 10" sound is universally wretched, and you put them to "bass 3, mids 6, treble 6" setting instead.

 

[darnold]

My guitar amp has 11.

Thats actually why i generally prefer to the band that i mix without everyone there, or sometimes no one else there. Of course i have the band write down notes of key things they are looking for. I only let one person stay if that person really knows what they are doing and i feel it will actually add by having them there. I feel things flow much better when i dont have someone looking over my shoulder wondering what the hell im doing. And of course for the obvious reasons, they have no clue how its supposed to sound on the monitor speakers. However, if i feel the person has a little idea on how the studio mixing works and will put full trust in my if i say that wont work, then im ok with it.

People are usually satisfied with the mix i produce without them there give or take a few minor things that i just run it and fix in a couple of minutes. But i find if i have someone in here who doesnt know what they are doing and they are demanding things, they always come back with the "im sorry i was wrong" deal. Well actually there are a few that still try and pin it on me...

Danny

 

[bucchild]

Thanks everybody. Sorry, but I've been unable to check the thread for a while.

I'm at the stage right now in my band's demo that all of the instruments are recorded, and all that's left is vocals. I was wondering what input I would get from everybody if I left my question as I did. In general, I didn't know if I should roll off each instrument separately or wait until mastering. I do, however, feel that I should get rid of the unnecessary low end before laying down vocals (I've noticed that with a lot of low end in a song, vocals tend to get lower than they need to be....).

I'm afraid we're in a situation where we need to master the demo ourselves. Our budget for mastering is $0. Even though the vocals have yet to be recorded, we're also well past the time we allowed ourselves to record a demo, too. (It's so much easier to take your time when you're not paying by the hour.) Anyway....I was wondering what I should do about rolling off my frequencies at the very low and very high ends, and which approach everyone suggested. Thanks to all again for all your input.

 

[Cloneboy Studio]

Don't roll off the high end on the vocals. That's a no-no... you'll kill any upper harmonics up there and the vocals will sound lifeless and low quality. EQ-wise on vocals try rolling off stuff around 150-200hz (high pass filter), a narrow cut for men's voices around 900hz, and maybe a boost around 9khz for some "air."

If the voice needs to sound a bit thicker, a 500hz boost can help out, if you need more excitement, 2khz is a good place to start.

Don't roll off those high freqs though. That would really bunge things up.

 

[bucchild]

Thanks, but what I meant is that before I record vocals, I want to roll off the unwanted lows and (if necessary) highs. But thanks for the suggestion of how to handle the vocals.

By the way...does anyone think "pre-mastering" before recording the vocals is a good or bad idea?

 

[Cloneboy Studio]

Thanks, but what I meant is that before I record vocals, I want to roll off the unwanted lows and (if necessary) highs. But thanks for the suggestion of how to handle the vocals.

Use the low freq rolloff on the mic if you have it. Don't roll off any highs! Not a good move, trust me.

By the way...does anyone think "pre-mastering" before recording the vocals is a good or bad idea?

Define pre-mastering? It sounds like a bad idea to me. Stick with the proven tracking-mixing-mastering order and you'll be fine.

 

[Cloneboy Studio]

Thanks, but what I meant is that before I record vocals, I want to roll off the unwanted lows and (if necessary) highs. But thanks for the suggestion of how to handle the vocals.

Use the low freq rolloff on the mic if you have it. Don't roll off any highs! Not a good move, trust me.

By the way...does anyone think "pre-mastering" before recording the vocals is a good or bad idea?

Define pre-mastering? It sounds like a bad idea to me. Stick with the proven tracking-mixing-mastering order and you'll be fine.

 

[bucchild]

By "pre-mastering" I mean "mastering" the instrumental track before adding the vocals. I mixed down the instruments before recording the vocals, and then mix the vocals with that. Maybe this in general is a bad idea, but I've found it to work out nicely with my last few recordings..... Anyway, I wouldn't master the track as if I were mastering an instrumental, because I know there may be things that I could lose that I might want once the vocals are on....but I was just thinking that maybe it would help to touch up the instrumental track before adding the vocals.....like eliminating the "mud" from the low end and such....