RNP vs. VTB1 vs. DMP3 (Bass DI)

[geekgurl]

Re: relief is here

Once again I'm surprised about the DMP3, and how many folks thought it may be the RNP. When I was tracking the DMP3 bassline, hearing it in my HD280's, I could've sworn it sounded the crappiest. I thought for sure people would pick it out.

Heh... it's gonna start sounding like I'm a plant for M-Audio or something, but I'm not smart/knowledgeable/available enough for the task
Chad

This is interesting. I haven't listened to the clips yet, but regarding jslator's comments that #3 was "mucho bass ... best of the bunch" echoes what I think I heard in the preamp test and is what I liked about the DMP3 clip there better, when standing on its own. IF indeed #3 is bassier, it would not surprise me, as I felt the DMP3 sample of miked guitar had more muscle, definitely more bottom end. Since I have POTS transfer rates and not much time right now, I won't be downloading these samples just yet ... but I thought I'd spout off and revisit the preamp test to make the connection between that and the preamp-as-DI test.

So go ahead, revisit that ol' preamp test. The RNP had more high end, but the DMP3 clip comparitively sacrificed that for what I thought was more balance ... listen especially to the guitar arpeggio when it reaches for a particular high note ... I think it's around the 11-second mark in one clip and the 13-second mark in another. There's something there about the way guitars behave that the DMP3 likes very much. Now for vocals or drum overheads or layers and layers of sound thru one preamp, who knows. Maybe the RNP would be better for that.

Well, just some musings...

Cheers!

gg

 

[chessrock]

Re: Re: relief is here

So go ahead, revisit that ol' preamp test. The RNP had more high end, but the DMP3 clip comparitively sacrificed that for what I thought was more balance ... listen especially to the guitar arpeggio when it reaches for a particular high note ... I think it's around the 11-second mark in one clip and the 13-second mark in another. There's something there about the way guitars behave that the DMP3 likes very much.

I think I agree with you mostly on that, although I thought that some of it's balance would be difficult to manage in a busy mix, where most would cut a good portion of that bass anyway.

But if you're going to revisit the preamp test, listen particularly for the fret noise. One thing you might notice is when his fingers slide from one note to the next for less than a second, the two pres appear to behave and handle that very differently . . . and it's something I didn't catch until much later.

Listen for it.

 

[alanhyatt]

I actually thought number 1 was the very worst, hence my assumption it was the Studio Projects.

So what you are saying is the VTB-1 sounded better to you than the RNP...

Thanks for your endorsement.....

 

[chessrock]

Why, yes Alan. I believe it was. I guess you gotta' take 'em wherever you can get them, right? So there you go. My endorsement of the vtb1.

 

[shortyprs]

Admitedly, the test was a thrown by the early tip-off, but I think its fair to say most of us thought the 3rd track was best followed by number 1, number 2 and number 4, in that order. Most of us could spot the less than stellar VTB1 in tube mode. Six of us tagged it. The rest of the votes tend to follow our original biases. I think most of us assume the DMP3 is an ok low end unit. It hasn't gotten a lot of flash. The VTB1 has gotten some press and more than a few mp3 samples to listen to. Its gotten mixed reviews. The RNP has gotten a lot of hype, with comparitively fewer samples to compare. Of the votes on number 3, most assumed it was the RNP, I think because we assumed the RNP is the better Pre. Of the votes on number 2, most assumed it was the DMP3. I think that's because we all think of it as the low end guy. The VTB1 w/o got equal votes for 1, 2 and 3 because we just don't know where to place it yet.

My conclusion from this and Participant's last test is that the DMP3 is excellent for the money. For setting something forward in the mix with a nice warm sound, it is the best of this bunch. Someone else pointed out that the RNP seems a 'tighter' signal...something that you can tuck into the mix without muddying it. That's my impression. I just don't know what to think of the VTB1 yet. That doesn't mean anything. I'm still pretty green at this. Just the same, I'm really appreciating my DMP3's and looking forward to adding the RNP (next week).

Thanks for all the trouble Participant. Helps us newbie's a lot.

 

[Middleman]

Pretty much agree on everything shortyprs said with one exception. I did not hear a big enough difference between the DMP3 and the RNP to want to pay another $300 for its sound. It's just not that big a dramatic sound step up.

This test has made me rethink the RNP. I am going to save a little while longer and take the next step up which is the Great River ME-1NV. I've seen it out there around $975 and I think your money would be going alot farther as well as your sound.

 

[jslator]

Pretty much agree on everything shortyprs said with one exception. I did not hear a big enough difference between the DMP3 and the RNP to want to pay another $300 for its sound. It's just not that big a dramatic sound step up.

To me they sounded completely different. In this particular application, I wouldn't say the RNP is a step up at all, as much as it's just a different sound. Of course, this is just using the units as bass DI. I've heard very good things out of the RNP on vocals and electric guitars. I've never heard the DMP3 in those applications, but I'd like to.

On the other hand, the VTB-1 seems to be recommended by a lot of people based solely on hype. I've never heard a comparison involving the VTB-1 where it wasn't completely outclassed by the competition (though I've never heard it side-by-side with a Tube MP). That's not just a question of choice. To me, it's just not a very good sounding unit.

 

[darrin_h2000]

I own both. But my VTB-1 is modded with a Mullard tube and I never got a usable signal out of the MP at all.

 

[chessrock]

On the other hand, the VTB-1 seems to be recommended by a lot of people based solely on hype.

Thank you.

 

[Middleman]

It could be that the these are closer in sound as DIs than they are as preamps for mics. The real test may be a vocal comparison to determine their quality...Hint hint participant!

 

[darrin_h2000]

quote:
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Originally posted by jslator
On the other hand, the VTB-1 seems to be recommended by a lot of people based solely on hype.
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As the RNP was as well, thats what happens when a company has a solid reputation, for exellent products. I like my VTB1 mostly for the sound, and the insert for my comp and de-esser. It has clean sound with the tube out of the mix, and mixing in a tube makes it more modular, as in you can put whatever tube in you like.

There are many that gave glowing reveiws on the product while the beta-testing was going on.

My thoughts on the M-audio dmp3 are that It may be good for a clean pre, but its a one trick pony, My yamaha MLA7 does it better with 8 channels.

 

[jslator]

As the RNP was as well, thats what happens when a company has a solid reputation, for exellent products.

Sure, but the RNP delivers on the hype. The VTB-1 doesn't.

My thoughts on the M-audio dmp3 are that It may be good for a clean pre, but its a one trick pony

From what I've heard, the VTB-1 doesn't really have any tricks.

My yamaha MLA7 does it better with 8 channels.

That may be. Maybe the MLA7 is a hidden gem. I'm glad you like your VTB-1 too, but it really doesn't do anything at all for me, even compared to other cheap pre's.

 

[alanhyatt]

Sure, but the RNP delivers on the hype. The VTB-1 doesn't.

From what I've heard, the VTB-1 doesn't really have any tricks.

To base opinions on something you hear via compressed files over a wire is like buying a car and judging how it handles based on a Playstation game program...

Not that it would make any difference based on your insistance of how bad it is, but can we assume you have not used one?

 

[chessrock]

Jesus, Alan. Let the guy have his opinion. What good is it if it only sounds decent on a 24-bit file? Quality gear should sound good accross a variety of different formats. Besides, it's just one guy's opinion. A lot of people like your pre, so who cares what he or I think anyway?

 

[shortyprs]

Hey, these are all good opinions. I agree that this was not the best test situation. Even the tests I do on my Korg sound different as I run around the house playing the CD's on different boxes.

On this test, I didn't like the VTB1 very much. Actually, the three tests I've heard, the VTB1 didn't stack up very well to my ears. Still, it doesn't mean anything until you stack it into a stereo mix and test it on commercial boxes. That's the real test.

Middleman makes a good point, and it makes me sad. With all the money I've spent on lower end pres, I could have a Great River or a Sytek + a DMP3 or.... Still, what makes it cool is that a homerecorder like myself can put together mixes with a pretty wide range of flavor by slowly buying pretty decent less expensive units. With a Joemeek, and RNP and the DMP3, I think I can do justice to the range of my tastes in music. That, my friends, is a damn fine homerecordin' reality!

 

[alanhyatt]

Jesus, Alan. Let the guy have his opinion. What good is it if it only sounds decent on a 24-bit file? Quality gear should sound good accross a variety of different formats. Besides, it's just one guy's opinion. A lot of people like your pre, so who cares what he or I think anyway?

Touchy aren't you...Got your period I asked him if he used it, or is that not allowed...

He has expressed his opinion three times already. I think my question was fair, so don't jump on me.

 

[participant]

At this point, I'd like to point out that I didn't set out to make any of the units look better/worse. Just recorded each pass with a different set up, and let the chips fall where they may. There's no interpretation implied, I hope. It is what it is, if it's anything.

Not planning on giving up on any of 'em just yet Some units will be better than others at some things. If further tests are done, it would surely only be fair to continue them as blind tests... since opinions may be biased against particular units. The VTB1 may in fact be the best unit in the next test. Who knows? Besides-- nothing is proven until you stack tracks, anyway.

And besides again... why should we have to think "better" or "worse"? We could just as easily say "different", if that's what we're hearing. And variety is good.


-C

 

[jslator]

To base opinions on something you hear via compressed files over a wire is like buying a car and judging how it handles based on a Playstation game program...

Not quite. It's more like buying a car based on test-driving it around town rather than taking it to a racetrack. You might not push it to its absolute limits with a drive around town, but you can get a pretty damn good idea of how it will perform in a real-world situation.

The interesting thing about these kind of listening tests under less-than-ideal conditions is that top-notch pre's still sound consistantly really good even in a compressed format. But, to me at least, the VTB-1 always sounds bad. That trend tells me something. I suppose it's possible that it somehow sounds great at 24 bit, 96 kHz and shitty in a compressed format, but I doubt it.

Not that it would make any difference based on your insistance of how bad it is, but can we assume you have not used one?

Nope. I've only heard recordings made with them. I suppose it's possible that there is some secret to making it sound good that the people making the recordings just can't figure out, but I doubt it. Hey, I readily acknowledge that these types of listening tests shouldn't necessarily be considered conclusive proof of a units worth or lack thereof. I have no doubt that there is something the VTB-1 is good at (it might couple well with some particular mic for instance), but I haven't heard it yet. I'll keep listening though.

And, Alan, I'm honestly not slamming the unit just to annoy you. I mean, I didn't even know which unit was the VTB-1 when I said that it sounded small and like it was crapping out. That was my honest assessment based solely on what I heard. I would be the first person to admit it if I ever hear it sound good on something.

 

[jslator]

And besides again... why should we have to think "better" or "worse"? We could just as easily say "different", if that's what we're hearing.

To an extent. All of these decisions are going to involve personal elements. On some particular source and some particular song, you might prefer an ART Tube MP to an Avalon VT737. I think it's going a little far, though, to say that the Avalon isn't any better than the Tube MP, but just different. In a sense, that's correct. But it's also misleading. The Tube MP is only going to be useful in those very few circumstances that you intentionally want a shitty, muddy sound. To me, being able to produce a shitty, muddy sound makes something useful. But not very.

Of course, until someone is experienced enough to hear how shitty and muddy the Tube MP is, then I guess it's fine for them. To an extent, perception is reality.

 

[DJL]

Re: relief is here

If this proves useful or interesting in the future, I may do similar tests w/vocals & mic'ing electric guitar.
Chad

Yes, its very interesting and useful. Please post more test. Thanks