Ribbon Mic ... Which One Then??!

[cello_pudding]

i guess i am.

the ribbons my school had were not mic looking at all. i remember them being flat grey panels. they come in a lot of shapes i guess. i couldn't find one shaped like i was thinking

 

[super 8]

Wow! Thanks For The Responses But ....

In a way it's made me EVEN more confused! As interesting as the above link to actually 'making your own ribbon mic' is I think I can rule that out as I'm not remotely technically minded! By the way, it's Trip here of the UK's SUPER 8 (www.myspace.com/super8musicuk). I'm the person responsible for starting this epic debate in the first place! Just to recap then: I'm wanting to buy a ribbon mic & I was asking people's advice on the matter. Since my original post I've now established a 'maximum amount I can afford to spend' &, prompted by further research a few more questions into the bargain I'm afraid! Namely:

1. The very maximum I can afford to spend is: 350 GBP (approx 720 USD).
Do I go all out on buying the most expensive ribbon mic I can afford on my budget OR do I get a cheaper one & get it 'customized'? I've read elsewhere that to power a ribbon mic you need a DECENT preamp. One article I read stated that the mic preamp I own (a TUBE MP line-in > BR1660CD portastudio) just isn't good enough. THIS IS CONFUSING! Does that mean that if I want to go down the ribbon mic route (as planned!) that I will ALSO need to invest in & budget for a more powerful preamp to match the mic?

2. What's the lowdown on LUNDAHL or JENSON update transformers? Someone recommended that whatever ribbon I get it would be worth updating the transformer to these. Eh?? To be honest I already feel a bit outta my depth here. I'm a USER & don't have much time, interest nor patience for all the technical stuff. I know how I want things to sound but I'm really no good with all the 'behind the scenes' stuff if you know what I mean. I don't have any qualifications in electronic science - I'm just a humble singer/songwriter who's looking for that kinda 60s acoustic/Dylan vibe/sound that I love so much but to date have been unable to capture. Really organic, natural, raw & true - no what I mean? Like I say, I recently had the good fortune to sing & play my acosutic (simultaneously) through an old RCA 44 and that was THE SOUND!!! Sounded absolutely awesome - no added EQ, compression, effects ... NOTHING! Like I also said though, there's no way on earth I can even begin to be able to afford such a mic & was kinda hoping there was an alternative that doesn't cost the earth & that would kinda get me that sound straight outta a box without having to worry about all the ROCKET SCIENCE!

3. Ribbon mics & harmonicas? I sing, strum acoustic & play a lot of harmonica simultaneously. I've read so much about the fragility of ribbon mics in general that I'm beginning to question whether it'll last in my home studio set-up. I don't wanna feel like I'm having to tip-toe about my attic on a carpet of eggshells! Some articles I've read state that even an inadvertant cough can damage the ribbon irrepairably! So what about all that forced through-air from playing harmonica? Once again, all thoughts MUCH, MUCH appreciated! I don't come across this kinda money very often & just wanna make sure I'm getting the very best & most suitable ribbon (& preamp??!) for my money. Cheers to everyone who's chipped in on this post to date! TRiP

 

[ofajen]

The very maximum I can afford to spend is: 350 GBP (approx 720 USD). Do I go all out on buying the most expensive ribbon mic I can afford on my budget OR do I get a cheaper one & get it 'customized'? I've read elsewhere that to power a ribbon mic you need a DECENT preamp. One article I read stated that the mic preamp I own (a TUBE MP line-in > BR1660CD portastudio) just isn't good enough. THIS IS CONFUSING! Does that mean that if I want to go down the ribbon mic route (as planned!) that I will ALSO need to invest in & budget for a more powerful preamp to match the mic?

1) I envy your chance to work with the RCA 44 mike.

2) I've heard good things about the Beyerdynamic M-130, which should be in your price range. Is it possible for you to check that mike out?

3) I think the preamp issues are mainly: a) having enough clean gain and low enough noise, and b) proper input impedance. Perhaps you can try out the ribbon mikes you are considering with the preamp(s) you have and see what you think?

Cheers,

Otto

 

[AGCurry]

1. The very maximum I can afford to spend is: 350 GBP (approx 720 USD).

This will get you a new Beyerdynamic M130. Alternatively, you might look out for a used Coles 4038, Royer R-121, Shure 300, or AEA R84.

Do I go all out on buying the most expensive ribbon mic I can afford on my budget OR do I get a cheaper one & get it 'customized'?

You might try the Oktava ML-52 with the mods (oktavamod?). The ML-52, stock, was my first ribbon. I didn't think much of it, but people I trust say that it's very good with the modifications.

I've read elsewhere that to power a ribbon mic you need a DECENT preamp. One article I read stated that the mic preamp I own (a TUBE MP line-in > BR1660CD portastudio) just isn't good enough. THIS IS CONFUSING! Does that mean that if I want to go down the ribbon mic route (as planned!) that I will ALSO need to invest in & budget for a more powerful preamp to match the mic?

All ribbon mics are not created equal. Stock Beyers, AEA, Shures all have enough output to drive *most* preamps. Others I have used do not.

I'm just a humble singer/songwriter who's looking for that kinda 60s acoustic/Dylan vibe/sound that I love so much but to date have been unable to capture. Really organic, natural, raw & true - no what I mean?

Yes, I think I do, but Bob Dylan's early recordings were made with Neumann condensors. I think the performer, the guitar, the room, and the talent of the recordist have more to do with achieving a particular sound than whether it's a condensor or a ribbon.

Like I say, I recently had the good fortune to sing & play my acosutic (simultaneously) through an old RCA 44 and that was THE SOUND!!! Sounded absolutely awesome - no added EQ, compression, effects ... NOTHING!

Agreed. There's nothing like a 44 except a 44.

3. Ribbon mics & harmonicas? I sing, strum acoustic & play a lot of harmonica simultaneously. I've read so much about the fragility of ribbon mics in general that I'm beginning to question whether it'll last in my home studio set-up. I don't wanna feel like I'm having to tip-toe about my attic on a carpet of eggshells! Some articles I've read state that even an inadvertant cough can damage the ribbon irrepairably! So what about all that forced through-air from playing harmonica?

As long as you're not playing with the mic-cupped-in-your-hand method a la Little Walter, don't worry. There's not enough air coming through a harmonica to harm a ribbon. In fact, the leader of the old group "The Harmonicats" held the Shure SM33 to be the best harmonica microphone in the world.

 

[super 8]

God You Guys Are Good!!

What a total WEALTH of information! I REALLY appreciate all your words of wisdom! Thanks so much folks for your insights - this is SO helpful & beginning to make sense to me. Yet to make a decision as to what I'm gonna buy BUT certainly a hell of a lot more informed! You ROCK!!!! THANK YOU SO MUCH!!! Cheers, your pal TRiP (www.myspace.com/super8musicuk)

 

[Marik]

If the RCA 44 is your idea of what you want from the ribbon experience, here are my observations. For what it's worth, I have quite a few ribbon mics, including the AEA R44 and R84, Shure SM33/333, Shure 300, and Beyerdynamic M160/260/500.

Part of what makes the 44 such an amazing mic is its reach. Its proximity effect begins about 3 feet away, and it will gladly pick up every tiny little fart (on axis) in a large room. The only new mic available like that today is AFAIK the AEA R44. It also has a fairly wide frequency response. You could use one or two of them for a symphony orchestra and get good results.

The "natural" polar pattern of a ribbon mic is a figure of eight, with the ribbon simply exposed on both sides. Anything done to change that will also change the sound to some degree, reducing the proximity effect. This isn't necessarily a bad thing - after all, it was a feature in the RCA 77DX. I'm just saying that a Beyerdynamic M500 or a Shure SM33 isn't going to sound like an RCA 44.

Another factor in the sound is the length of the ribbon, as well as its tension.
Unless you can try before you buy, or you're willing to pay the cost of reribboning up front - steer clear of vintage RCA mics. With these mics, you're paying a premium for the vintage factor but they may be beat up and need work.

Nice write up AGCurry,

Just wanted to add some more...

With seeming simplicity of ribbon mics construction every little detail is extremely important and can have a major contribution into the final sound. Besides some obvious things such as grill construction and it's layering, transformer, etc., just to sketch the important factors in the sound of the ribbons:
Magnet structure, its size and configuration.
Ribbon width (in addition to length).
Ribbon thickness.
Ribbon material.
Ribbon corrugation.
Ribbon clearance in the magnetic gap.
Precision of ribbon instalation in the gap.

Best, M

 

[AGCurry]

Nice write up AGCurry,

Just wanted to add some more...

With seeming simplicity of ribbon mics construction every little detail is extremely important and can have a major contribution into the final sound. Besides some obvious things such as grill construction and it's layering, transformer, etc., just to sketch the important factors in the sound of the ribbons:
Magnet structure, its size and configuration.
Ribbon width (in addition to length).
Ribbon thickness.
Ribbon material.
Ribbon corrugation.
Ribbon clearance in the magnetic gap.
Precision of ribbon instalation in the gap.

Best, M

Marik knows ribbons.

 

[soundchaser59]

Ive been told to only go with Royer or dont bother at all...

If you got a $1000 bucks laying around to burn, sure......

Otherwise, start with the Shinybox and the Cascade Fathead II and the Apex 210, any of which will give you a better "all around deal" than the Nady.

From there you are pretty much stuck jumping up to the $500 dollar range with the Beyer M130. That's as good as it gets without jumping up to the Royers.....but that's pretty darn good for home recording!

 

[mikeyp62]

I'm surprised I haven't seen a mention of a Peluso R14 on this thread. I just got one, and it's given me that "ribbon sound" I was wanting. You can go to http://soundpure.com/showProduct.do?id=812 and hear sampes as well as a shootout with the 121. Peluso mics in general are excellent mics, and a great bargain. Not just good for the money, but something you won't end up wanting to upgrade. No, I don't work for them; I'm just a huge fan.

 

[stetto]

After doing some listening on that Cascade site I have to wonder a bit--They do a track comparison between a Fathead and an SM57 on a guitar cab. The difference is pretty stark...Then they go on to demonstrate each mic'd guitar solo track in the mix, followed by the two guitar tracks (the same take tracked by the two mics) blended and added to the mix...And commenced to recommending that the Fathead be used in conjunction with the 57...

I realize that this isn't anything new, and that many sources are recorded simultaneously with multiple mics, but is this a good way to promote their product, giving the impression that an additional purchase of a competitor's product is necessary to optimize performance?

...And additionally, is this a common characteristic of ribbons? I'd like to hope not.

Just curious...

Eric

I'm repeating this because I'd really like to know; Do ribbon mics generally need "backup" to fill the freq spectrum? When Cascade sez that their Fathead benefits from the addition of an SM57 track of the same source, it tells me that the Cascade must drop off substantially in the upper kHz...

Eric

 

[pohaku]

Generally no. I don't usually use another mic paired with my AEA R84 or Beyers. Actually the only exception would be on cabs -- but then it's pretty common to use a couple different mics (usually a 57 and something else) on cabs and mix to taste anyway regardless of whether you are using a ribbon or not.

 

[cusebassman]

I've heard good reviews from some trusted names on this board regarding the Chinese import ribbons, such as Apex / Nady / etc... just ordered an Apex 210, so I'll keep everyone posted... the sound clips of it Ive found were pretty good, and Im looking for a dark mic (my voice is full, but the high end shines through far too much on all the mics I have currently)... I'll let ya know!

 

[60's guy]

I've considered buying a ribbon mic during the past few months but I've procrastinated. This really is an interesting thread!

 

[soundchaser59]

I'm repeating this because I'd really like to know; Do ribbon mics generally need "backup" to fill the freq spectrum? When Cascade sez that their Fathead benefits from the addition of an SM57 track of the same source, it tells me that the Cascade must drop off substantially in the upper kHz...

Eric

It's the other way around.....the dynamics benefit from the backup of the ribbon. The ribbon by itself will sound noticeably better than the dynamic by itself.

But the best guitar cab sound is obtained by using a ribbon to enhance any other mic. The best sound I've achieved is using a ribbon (Fathead) and an RE20 together. But if you forced me to only use one mic on my cab, I would use the ribbon.

 

[Caotico]

the Apex 205 goes for 99$ on frontendaudio.com
I was hoping to pick up a good deal on a used 205 last week on ebay, but people bid it up past the frontend new price (which is the lowest I've found). Anyway, it might be worth trying out. You can always sell it on ebay for more than it cost you in the first place (o.k. maybe not always. That place really seems to be a crapshoot).

 

[Big Kenny]

Caveat: You get what you pay for.

 

[cusebassman]

Oh, Im not expecting a grand RCA sound from a ribbon that costs 150 bucks, believe me... but for the price, they do get surprisingly good reviews. So, we'll see

 

[ozraves]

I haven't used any of the cheapies.

My faves thus far: sE R1 Ribbon and the AEA R92.

I tried the AEA R84 and while I liked it I did not get a good sense of it being the thing for home recording. My own view after thinking about it for months has to do with it needing some space off of the source. I'm talking about more than six inches too. I'm probably thinking in terms of over a foot off the source or even two or three feet off the source.

 

[tnjazz]

Agree with the suggestion of the Beyers for your price range.

Another mic that's getting pretty good reviews (in your price range) and has not been mentioned on this thread yet is the Sigma from Sontronics.

http://www.sontronics.com/main_frame_set.htm

 

[pohaku]

I haven't used any of the cheapies.

My faves thus far: sE R1 Ribbon and the AEA R92.

I tried the AEA R84 and while I liked it I did not get a good sense of it being the thing for home recording. My own view after thinking about it for months has to do with it needing some space off of the source. I'm talking about more than six inches too. I'm probably thinking in terms of over a foot off the source or even two or three feet off the source.

I agree that the R84 might be trickier in small home studios as it really isn't for close micing. Sounds just great in a decent space however.