Reverb question (recording)

[pointfive]

I'm worried that I'm doing something unendurably stupid, please dispel or confirm my suspicions.

I record with a pretty basic setup of gear I've acquired over the years: Tascam DA-38 through a Mackie 1402VLZ. Recently I've been working with a violinist (she plays an electric violin), and I've been encountering problems which can usually be fixed or at least smoothed by (in addition to EQing) adding some reverb. Since I don't have the luxury of a software setup, I do this by doing an aux send to a guitar multi-effects unit (a Roland GT-5, to be specific). This usually sounds fine after I get the levels tweaked.

Now my question is this: am I doing something intensely stupid here? I had planned to get an outboard reverb unit, but I couldn't afford it, so I tried this approach in a pinch. I know to trust my ears, and my ears tell me the results are fine. My worry was that this method would introduce a lot of noise. It doesn't. Does that mean I can cross the outboard reverb unit off my list, or will this method fail me most of the time?

 

[XLR]

Not clear whether you're using the GT5 as an effect during mixdown or in the tracking. ...? Personally I'd keep the initial track clear of effects. Other than that... whatever works.

I imagine the elec violin is using a piezo transducer. If so, problems recording it might be from an impedence mismatch (that's so common with acoustic guitar piezo use). What kind of preamp or buffer is the elec violin going through before it hits the mixer or recorder?

Tim

 

[mixsit]

Presuming (a lot here ) that the Roland is instrument level in and out, and you're feeding it line level attenuated back down to that box, (low impedance into high.. that should be ok..) then re-amping back up to line level (maybe some loss of highs there?), you'd expect some noise penalties. But if the signals have good gains setups (start off clean) to begin with ...

Well, hell with all this whacking about. Is it noisy or isn't it?

Wayne

 

[gecko zzed]

When recording, I don't think there are things we can call 'right' and 'wrong'. There are only things we like to hear or things we don't like to hear. From what you are describing, it seems that you are getting ok results, i.e. you are converting what you don't like to hear to what you do like to hear.

In the end, you may get better and more manageable results by getting a reverb unit that is designed to work with a mixer, as opposed to a guitar effect, so keep saving up. In the meantime, if it works, stick with it.

 

[rayc]

.5
Does it work?
If it does - it's right.
If it doesn't - it's not quite right.
If it makes things worse - it's wrong.
Regardless, follow the advise of those folk above. They have learnt by trying things out & matching the results to the above criteria.
Cheers
rayC

 

[pointfive]

Thank you all for your responses.

Timothy: yes, it is a piezo violin unless I'm mistaken. Generally we run her direct through a DI box, and also set up 2 or 3 mics on her amp and in the room. We can usually get a workable sound from from a mixture of these, though if memory serves me, we do keep the direct signal pretty low as it really cuts through, even after EQing it heavily. And we just use the mic preamps built into the mixer--again, lack of funds, heh. And I agree about keeping the signal clean until mixdown... that's what we've been doing.

mixsit: It's not noisy, though I do have to turn the input gain on the guitar effects box all the way down. I was expecting it to be really noisy/dirty and was surprised when it wasn't. The amount I'm adding is subtle, though... if I wanted to do something drastic, should I expect it to be more noticably ugly?

gecko and rayc: That's what my gut was telling me, yeah. All this raises a peripheral question, however... if I should keep saving to buy a reverb unit, how much should I expect to spend? I've heard Lexicons were good... and a quick search returns prices ranging from $200 (MX200) to $2,000 (PCM91). Bearing in mind that I'm only acquiring equipment to record my own band (not run a studio, and thus I'll make no direct return on my investment), is it even worth it? I know this is a subjective question, but when I see a $2,000 price tag for reverb, the overly-vocal newbie in my head exclaims, "For just reverb? Why the hell would anyone spend that?"

Again, thanks for the answers!

 

[gecko zzed]

The issue of price versus quality raises many debates here. Yes . . . I agree that when you put the equation together, it looks crazy: reverb = $2000??

In deciding what to get there are a number of factors: how serious are you about the professional level? how well would you extract the most of the gear? how well does it fit with the rest of your gear? what can you afford?

Then there is the price of reputation . . . some brands are able to command higher prices by virtue of their reputation. So you end up paying $500 for the electronics and $1500 for the badge on the front.

My method is to seek the cheapest I can find that will do the job (because I am not wealthy and hate spending money. However, sometimes I do see a 'must have', and then I (reluctantly) fork out.

Quite often you would not get a ten-fold incrfease in quality between a $200 unit and a $2000 unit, but you would get an increase. Spend what you fell comfortable spending. If you think the price is hyped, don't feel pressured into it. It is possible to turn out very good stuff with the low-end gear . . . you might need to work harder with it to get there, but.

 

[peopleperson]

"If it sounds right, it is right" - Joe Meek

I know I use it a lot, but it's so true.

 

[mixsit]

I think you'd find even some of the low end verbs are at least quite decent.
What you might do to get a handle on how far you can go sonically with the existing verb is to intentionally feature it in some test mixes. For example push it into a roll where it's providing a room or hall for a solo instrument, some things where it's exposed.
It's interesting that besides the price+quality+'naked-usability' issue for hardware, not surprisingly it applies to our performance, and to a lesser degree recording quality hen it comes to how well things 'stand up.

 

[peopleperson]

There was a great article a while back where EM interviewed the guy who engineered Outkast among a lot of other stuff. As pro as the guy is, he swears by the Alesis nano verb, and swears that it's one of his favorite verbs, and he claims he uses it on virtually everything he does. No one said you had to have a ton of money dumped into a piece of gear for it to sound great.

 

[rayc]

I have four sources of reverb:
In aquisition order-
1st - My tiled bathroom/shower recess;
2nd - from a Yamaha multi effect unit (FX500) bought for me by my wife many years ago
3rd - those FX supplied with Cakewalk Pro 9.3
& finally from an Alesis Microverb I bought 2nd hand from ebay for <AU$100
Between them the total cost wouldn't be more than a few hundred dollars aside from a purpose built shower recess/echo/live room.
Run with what you can get your hands on until you hear/use/try/come across/are given/can afford something BIG/flashy/expensive/dedicated.
Cheers
rayC

 

[pointfive]

Thanks again all, for the advice and guidance. It was helpful and well-received.

Here's the end result using the setup I initially described:

It's by no means perfect, but I'm decently happy with it considering it's just a demo. I'll probably do another mix to tweak some level problems. Any thoughts/feedback will be welcome.