Reverb Quality

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SouthSIDE Glen said:
How do you determine the quality of a spice?
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Yes, good comparison. We grow our own cilantro, mint and basil. When we cook we walk out and clip off what we need. No store bought versions compare with fresh cut. But if I had never had home-grown I'd have thought that dried basil was great.

Software verbs hit me the same way. I see them as an unfortunate necessity, but I haven't found one that really does it for me enough to use it as freely as I'd like. I doubt I'm ever going to be satisfied with verb until I have a cavernous hall to record in at my whim. :D Yeah, right... but I'm still hoping for a plugin that'll let me turn my living room into that.

Tim
 
giraffe said:
the only (useable) reverb i have is waves trueverb.

but dammit........ verbs are expensive.
(rtas)
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Dude - SIR is a freeware convolution reverb. Echochamber have a load of top quality (like the 32bit EMT250 ) impulse responses for FREE... Whoever asked the original question - what have you got to lose? Follow the previous links I posted, install SIR and load up an EMT250 impulse response and just grin broadly. :D

Ok - just noticed the RTAS bit - VST to RTAS convertor? I'm assuming the person asking the orginal question has a VST compatible host.
 
what the hell is all that stuff on that echochamber page? I can't tell what's what because its all in german. are ALL of those links to impulse response banks? cuz if so, then thats a frickin' goldmine.

when you guys roll off the high end of the verb, do you shelf or pass it? I always get confused when people say "Roll off" because I never know exactly what they mean... do you want no high frequency content at all? I guess I should use my ears...

when using verbs, is it pretty much standard practice to set it up on its own aux send or channel and use a 100% wet mix blended back with the dry source on another track? Does anybody actually put verbs on tracks as inserts and use a wet/dry mix or is that pretty much a newbie mistake?

also, can somebody tell me a bit about damping? what exactly does it do?
 
Ford Van said:
Ambiance is killer!

RoomVerb 2 is great!!!

Lexicon Pantheon is pretty damn good.

There are MANY that I could use, but not like using it much, but wouldn't complain too loudly at having to use them.

Most people just don't have a freakin' clue how to set up a reverb. Too bad.
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Ford Van,

If you are so inclined, would you mind sharing some of your thoughts on setting up reverb? It would be appreciated in a big way.
 
Hi_Flyer said:
what the hell is all that stuff on that echochamber page? I can't tell what's what because its all in german. are ALL of those links to impulse response banks? cuz if so, then thats a frickin' goldmine.
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Get Google to translate the page - Google "Echochamber impulse responses" and click 'translate this page'. It's not gonna be queens English mind you, but you'll get the idea!

Reverb Damping (quote):
Usually a Highshelf and/or a Lowshelf EQ with variable Frequency.
These EQs are applied continuously to an evolving reverb of a piece of audio. Over time, as the reverb fades, so do certain frequencies, either in the lower or higher frequency range. The more less-reflective surfaces the sound bounces around from, the more the reverb is dampened the higher frequencies.

So, I guess when I configure the verb unit to roll off low frequencies (so the reverb doesn't get all muddy) that's damping?
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
How do you determine the quality of a spice?

G.
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I know what you guys are getting at with responses like this, or something like "use your ears." Valid answers, of course - but I was hoping to stimulate a little more specific conversation for the sake of education.
Personally, I test them out in Wet mode and listen for the objectionable digital clang and smoothness of the tails. Once those "spices" are to my liking I'll play around with predelay, room size, tail length and damping to get an ambience that fits in with the pulse and/or timbre of the music. Then back it off to get just a whisker of room sound for a sense of space. From there the wet/dry ratio can change depending on how it sits in the mix as a whole.
That's about all I know for now.
 
I'm not sure that's the best method to audition verbs. It may make you bypass the right verb for a track that just sounds wrong until you mix it proportionately. To use Glens spice analogy, some great dishes have just a pinch of an unlikely spice in them, and you'd never guess it's the secret to that special something the dish has, as the spice by itself seems completely wrong for it. Just a thought.
 
tkingen said:
Ford Van,

If you are so inclined, would you mind sharing some of your thoughts on setting up reverb? It would be appreciated in a big way.
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Yes.

First of all, you have to imagine a kind of "space" that you want. If you have no idea what kind of space you are creating, how can you set up the reverb. I bet 90% of you guys don't do this crutial step! Hall? Room? Chamber? Cathedral? Plate? Stadium? What kind of reverb you looking to do?

Next, the pre-delay is possibly the most important control initially for the reverb (it was mentioned earlier in the thread). Set too early, the reverb will muck up the attack of the sound. Possibly, you might WANT that! But usually, you have to set the pre-delay to a time that makes sure that the reverb doesn't muck up the attack.

Early reflection level. The early reflection level probably kills most reverbs! Too much, and the reverb sounds "phasey". I lower that first reflection level down at LEAST -18dB !!!!! I feel bad for you if your reverb doesn't have this control. :( I only use one reverb that doesn't have it, and that is Ambience (Ambience has a "Variation" button, and best I can tell, early reflection levels are adjusted by clicking on it). RoomVerb 2 has this control. Just turn it down, WAY down! Sometimes, you can increase the pre-delay amount to ward off this evil culprit of bad reverb! So, on vocals and stuff, you will probably be using a VERY long pre-delay (like at least 50ms!) and early reflection levels will not muck up the sound. But on drums, just turn this WAY down! Trust me, your reverb will sound like a totally new reverb if you do!

Next, you have to carefully play around with:

1 - Filters for the sound going into the reverb. For example, if you snare is feeding a reverb, and you are not gating the snare, you will most likely have a LOT of hi hat bleed. You probably don't want the hi hat triggering the reverb eh? So, you would filter (EQ) the sound before the reverb (some reverbs have this control) so that higher frequencies do not trigger it. Also, you may not want the BOOM of the tom tom's to contribute to the reverb sound, thus, you may want to filter out lower frequencies for your tom reverb.

2 - Decay. This is tricky, because the decay will be effected by the filters too! It would be MORE effected by Damping (which I talk about next).

Obviously, the decay needs to fill the amount of space that you imagine it will. It has to fill this space so that you can HEAR it in the mix! So, if your mix is dense, you will most likely need more decay because the volume drops off as the decay progresses eh?

3 - Damping. This is like the post reverb eq sort of, but more like the absorption of the "space" that you created (you know, what is on the walls). Different materials absorb different frequencies better.

Anyway, the behavior of the reverberation is effected by damping. Also, your perceived decay is majorly effected by it. You can lose size on the reverb if you dampen too much low end. You can lose detail on the reverb if you dampen too much high end.

In the end, filters, decay, and damping play hand in hand, and these three controls must be carefully adjusted to work WELL with each other.


Diffusion. I have played around with DX/VST verbs that don't seem to change at all when the diffusion is adjusted! :( This is a control that I NEED to work well, and I quit using Waves reverbs, because their Diffusion adjustments sounded aweful.

Diffusion is what I call the "interesting" control for the decay. The more diffusion you apply, the less interesting the decay is! Low diffusion settings will create more varied echo's, and this becomes VERY noticeable on LONG decays.

For drums, usually, higher diffusion values work. You don't really "need" varied decay because the original sound is short lived, and we are looking for a continuation of that sound. Put for say a vocal, the sounds are generally more drawn out, and the reverb is going to blend with the sound. Having some variance in the reverb really helps here.

I sometimes, if the mix is really spacious, and I want something interesting for the snare, will use a very low diffusion setting. It can really make the "space" far more interesting, and take away some of that stale digital reverb sound. Overall, lower diffusion settings will take away some of that stale digital reverb sound! (don't think "stale digital reverb sound" is JUST on plugin's!!! Listen to a fucking Yamaha reverb! :( That is about as stale as it gets!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The SPX 90 in particular has to be the worlds most stale reverb! :))

There you have a short primer on setting up reverb. My guess is that many of you are too lazy to use the ample controls your reverb provides for you. If you DO decide to spend some time working the control with a PURPOSE in mind, I think you will find that you can get a LOT more out of your plugin reverb. While I don't think RVerb, or DVerb, or Dreamverb, or any of the normal crap guys are using are going to touch a Lexicon PCM 70/90, I am sure you can make it usuable if you spend some time adjusting the controls with the above in mind.
 
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Thanks Ford! I always said you had a better idea.

What about re-recording your mix in an environment with good verb using room mics and then mixing that into your original mix, would that work?
 
Ford Van said:
Hey, no need to thank me or anything! ;)
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Hey,

Thanks, I gotta admit to being sort of a reverb-tard.

Any words of experience regarding the "room size" control vs. the decay control?
 
boingoman said:
Any words of experience regarding the "room size" control vs. the decay control?
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Yeah, when a woman says size doesn't matter, she's lying. And if the size isn't there, you'd damn well better have good decay control. :D
 
Ford Van said:
Hey, no need to thank me or anything! ;)
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You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Ford Van again.


Oh yes, most of us NEED to thank you for your generous help. I haven't seen a better primer on reverb use anywhere. Thanks, boss!

.
 
boingoman said:
Any words of experience regarding the "room size" control vs. the decay control?
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Yeah, use your ears and do what sounds best for your mix! ;)

:D
 
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