Replacing tuning pegs?

O

obsidian3d

New member
Hey everyone,

I have a guitar that I rebuilt several years back that I recently took out of storage. It was stripped, repainted and all the electronics were replaced.

I restrung it and stretched them out as I usually do, retuning as I went. Once I'd gotten all the stretch out of the strings I reset the action and intonation and everything seems good.

However, I've noticed that after playing it and doing some bends the strings quickly come out of tune. I can't visibly tell if the tuning keys are turning, but I was wondering if it's possible that the shanks are turning. The tuners weren't replaced when I rebuilt the guitar.

Is it easiest to just replace them? Or do I have any other options to fix this problem...

Thanks in advance!
 
This is just my opinion but the three guitars I went thru, I put the Sperzel locking tuners on em.

I had to do some drillin on mine to make the holes bigger and for the set pins but I really like the Sperzels. Easy to string too. Just poke yer string thru, lock it down, cut the string and tune it. Never had any slippage either.

As far as a repair on what you've got, I dunno. The ones I was workin on....not worth tryin to fix so they got replaced.

My 2c mang.........;)
 
Haha good question. I'm thinking that I'll just have to bite the bullet and replace the tuners. If I do that I might just tear the whole thing apart and repaint it. Ten years after the fact...it's a pretty hideous paintjob. I'll have to swing by the shop on Sunday and see if they have anything that will match the ones I have on here. I don't really feel like drilling new holes for them.
 
I'll lay 100:1 that your gears are not the problem (though honestly, I'd just be taking your money, as the real odds are more like 200:1). Gears basically never slip, unless one of the gears is striped. It is FAR more likely that something is sticking somewhere - most commonly the nut, but it could also be anywhere else the string is touching something else. If you want to replace your gears because you've got GAS, go ahead, but it is unlikely to fix your tuning problem.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Use a reamer

obsidian3d said:
Haha good question. I'm thinking that I'll just have to bite the bullet and replace the tuners. If I do that I might just tear the whole thing apart and repaint it. Ten years after the fact...it's a pretty hideous paintjob. I'll have to swing by the shop on Sunday and see if they have anything that will match the ones I have on here. I don't really feel like drilling new holes for them.
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If you are going to make your holes bigger for different machine heads, I suggest a reamer. I tried to enlarge an existing hole with a drill bit a long time ago and it made quite a mess. The wood splintered. What happens is instead of the drill cutting the wood cleanly, the drill tends to force its way in the existing hole. It pulls itself in and splits and wedges the wood. I stopped myself in time otherwise I imagine the headstock on the Les Paul could have split apart. I carefully used the reamer from both sides of the headstock, The reamer has a taper so if you go from both sides and alternate the hole will be as symetrical as possible. I agree friction along the string path can cause tuning problems. Also, I have replaced old tuners in the past that seem to have been the problem
Good luck
VP:cool:
 
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stevieb said:
Can you even tune worms? I would think they would break long before you got them even close to pitch...
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Are you nuts? You don't tune the worms. The worms tune the guitar. Night crawlers work best, due to their strength, and they go to night (crawler) school to learn the trade.

Tapeworms won't work - they just break apart into proglottids.

I10-82-tapeworm.jpg




Of course, if you really want to make sure the worm doesn't slip, you'll need to get one of these:

sarlacc.jpg
 
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I would agree that tuners are not the problem. Even the cheap worm gear tuners seem to work well - they might have some slop, but if you tune up to pitch, they don't seem to go backward. I don't know where that myth, "if a guitar won't stay in tune, change the tuners" started, but I suspect it may be because of their name; "tuners" . Perhaps if they were called "string tensioners", players would tend to look elsewhere.

I do know that "stretching" newly installed strings doesn't so much stretch the strings as it does remove the slack in the winds around the tuning post, and also a bit from the ball end. Guys who do not "stretch tune" new strings, or don't stretch enough, will gain tuning stability with locking tuners, since you don't use "wraps" on their posts

I personally believe that heavy tuners have a huge impact on tone, that the neck of a guitar is kinda analogous to a tuning fork. The more weight you put at the end of neck, the more it inhibits the vibration. A lot of locking tuners are extra-heavy; the difference between a lightweight set, like Klusons, and some heavy ones, like Rotomatics can be close to a 1/2 pound. Try clamping 8 ounces of metal to a headstock, and see how much different it sounds.... I am curious what Light, and some of the other guitar tech/luthiers have to say on the subject.
 
So is there a way to rule out the tuners as the culprits? And if it's not the tuners, how do I go about pinning down what IS the cause of the problem?
 
obsidian3d said:
So is there a way to rule out the tuners as the culprits? And if it's not the tuners, how do I go about pinning down what IS the cause of the problem?
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What specific guitar? electric? trem bridge? Tuneomatic? strat style?

How does it go out of tune? does it tend to get lower in pitch? Up in pitch? all strings, or just some? what gauge are you using?


I would bet that the nut is the highest % culprit, but trem equipped guitars can be very problematic. Lubrication in the nut can help a lot, but the slots need to be cut right for the gauge strings you use.

I would check to make sure your tuners are tightened up on the headstock.

how much do you "stretch" the strings"? I find that I need to pull them up probably 6 -10 times. On electrics, using .010 - .046 strings that weigh like 8 - 9.5 pounds, I pull them up until the guitar lifts off the table, with the exception of the high e and the d strings - I give just a little less pull, since they break easier.
 
obsidian3d said:
So is there a way to rule out the tuners as the culprits? And if it's not the tuners, how do I go about pinning down what IS the cause of the problem?
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The trick is not to rule out the tuners - it's so unlikely to be the tuners causing the problem that you should rule out everything else before you even consider the tuners (unless, of course, you can see a worn gear or something).


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Light said:
The trick is not to rule out the tuners - it's so unlikely to be the tuners causing the problem that you should rule out everything else before you even consider the tuners (unless, of course, you can see a worn gear or something).


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
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Even then it would only be a single string playing up and not consistently. All six just don't fail at once unless you gonna give me odds that are way higher.;)

I'll take odds of a 100-1. In the meantime check the nut slots and after that try the saddle. If you still have issues report back. Tuners only fail catastrophically they either work or they don't.
 
FatFinger

MajorTom said:
I would agree that tuners are not the problem. Even the cheap worm gear tuners seem to work well - they might have some slop, but if you tune up to pitch, they don't seem to go backward. I don't know where that myth, "if a guitar won't stay in tune, change the tuners" started, but I suspect it may be because of their name; "tuners" . Perhaps if they were called "string tensioners", players would tend to look elsewhere.

I do know that "stretching" newly installed strings doesn't so much stretch the strings as it does remove the slack in the winds around the tuning post, and also a bit from the ball end. Guys who do not "stretch tune" new strings, or don't stretch enough, will gain tuning stability with locking tuners, since you don't use "wraps" on their posts

I personally believe that heavy tuners have a huge impact on tone, that the neck of a guitar is kinda analogous to a tuning fork. The more weight you put at the end of neck, the more it inhibits the vibration. A lot of locking tuners are extra-heavy; the difference between a lightweight set, like Klusons, and some heavy ones, like Rotomatics can be close to a 1/2 pound. Try clamping 8 ounces of metal to a headstock, and see how much different it sounds.... I am curious what Light, and some of the other guitar tech/luthiers have to say on the subject.
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The extra weight on the headstock will give a guitar more sustain. The extra mass acts to dampen the wasted energy of the vibrating neck. The string will then vibrate longer. I use to use Aspen Pittmans FatFinger, it is basically a brass clamp for the headstock. It did increase the sustain, I dont remember what the effect on tone was, probably an increase in treble. I had a problem with tuning on my Les Paul even after I changed the machine heads. I needed to change the machine heads anyway because Gibson sometimes puts the so called "Vintage tuners" on some models, made in Japan, they have short posts and a lot of slop in the gears. It is funny, they are the machine heads they put on their "VOS" reissues. Anyways I found if I adjusted the stopbar all the way down to the body it would stay in tune. The added friction over the saddles helped keep the strings from slipping. If there was not enough friction the strings would move back and forth over the saddle. I also like to put powder in the grooves of the nut and saddle. Also a method of tuning I use is to always tune up to pitch slowly, If you tune down to pitch there is some play in the worm gear that will slip.
VP;)
 
Victory Pete said:
The extra weight on the headstock will give a guitar more sustain. The extra mass acts to dampen the wasted energy of the vibrating neck. The string will then vibrate longer. I use to use Aspen Pittmans FatFinger, it is basically a brass clamp for the headstock. It did increase the sustain, I dont remember what the effect on tone was, probably an increase in treble. I had a problem with tuning on my Les Paul even after I changed the machine heads. I needed to change the machine heads anyway because Gibson sometimes puts the so called "Vintage tuners" on some models, made in Japan, they have short posts and a lot of slop in the gears. It is funny, they are the machine heads they put on their "VOS" reissues. Anyways I found if I adjusted the stopbar all the way down to the body it would stay in tune. The added friction over the saddles helped keep the strings from slipping. If there was not enough friction the strings would move back and forth over the saddle. I also like to put powder in the grooves of the nut and saddle. Also a method of tuning I use is to always tune up to pitch slowly, If you tune down to pitch there is some play in the worm gear that will slip.
VP;)
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Hmm let me think???


Nope I have read it again and this is total loblox of the finest quality from start to finish. Well done.
 
As several folks have already pointed out, a worm gear, by fundamental design, cannot slip. The string could be slipping on the peg, but the gear cannot slip. If you try to force a worm gear to turn from the other side, you'll break a tooth on the gear.

Your strings are, with about 99% probability, sticking and slipping at the nut. Try some graphite (pencil lead is fine) in the groove and see if that helps. If not, get the nut recut. :)
 
Victory Pete said:
The extra weight on the headstock will give a guitar more sustain. The extra mass acts to dampen the wasted energy of the vibrating neck. The string will then vibrate longer. I use to use Aspen Pittmans FatFinger, it is basically a brass clamp for the headstock. It did increase the sustain, I dont remember what the effect on tone was, probably an increase in treble. I had a problem with tuning on my Les Paul even after I changed the machine heads. I needed to change the machine heads anyway because Gibson sometimes puts the so called "Vintage tuners" on some models, made in Japan, they have short posts and a lot of slop in the gears. It is funny, they are the machine heads they put on their "VOS" reissues. Anyways I found if I adjusted the stopbar all the way down to the body it would stay in tune. The added friction over the saddles helped keep the strings from slipping. If there was not enough friction the strings would move back and forth over the saddle. I also like to put powder in the grooves of the nut and saddle. Also a method of tuning I use is to always tune up to pitch slowly, If you tune down to pitch there is some play in the worm gear that will slip.
VP;)
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I think some guys will like the tone with more mass, and some won't, definitely a matter of preference. I brought it up because I know a lot of players change out the stock tuners for lockers and other heavy ones, because they believe it will stay in tune better...IMO, it will not help tuning stability, but will change the tone somewhat - whether for better or worse is in the ear of the beholder. On LP's, I prefer the lighter ones, I think it imparts a little more "acoustic" tone, not as "focused" as heavier ones. A good LP has plenty of sustain no matter what kind of tuners. Whether a string rings for 19 seconds, or you increase it to 21.3 (or whatever it would be) I think is far less important, at least to me, than the shape of its envelope for the first 6, 8, maybe 10 seconds.

Back to the OP:

How many wraps around the posts? I looked at a problematic guitar that belonged to a guy at church, it would not stay in tune at all, constantly going down in pitch. I looked at the pegs and he only had like 1.5 or 2 wraps around the post (non-locking tuners). When I pulled up on the strings to "stretch" them, they would go way flat...over and over and over - I watched them up close and the strings were slipping on the post. I handed it back and told him to put new strings on, with more wraps...
 
Just one more thought before I go to bed... don't forget about the wraps at the ball ends as being one source of de-tuning. I don't think it is usually the primary source, but it does contribute.

I used to have a licensed Steinberger copy - that used double ball end strings. Those tuners were not slipping either, and no post wraps to have slack. It stayed in tune about as well as any guitar I ever had, but the strings would go a pinch flat as you played it. One time I soldered the wraps at both the ball ends before I put a new set on, and that seemed to improve the tuning stability. I do believe that in the "stretch tuning" process, that it does compress/tighten some slack of the wrap at the ball end.
 
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