Recording my own violin playing

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eug_fiddler

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Hi guys, just joined the forums...

Basically I'm a professional classical violinist, and want to start making high-quailty recordings that I can use for audition tapes, and for my own personal use (recording yourself is so useful to really hear what you're doing, etc..).

In the past I've used a MiniDisc recorder with a Sony stereo mic - I want something a lot better sounding than this.

I was thinking, for a start, to get a basic USB interface for my Macbook, and I guess a pair of mics??? I obviously have no idea how to do this stuff, but in the past when I've had people make recordings for me, the most basic setup I've seen is a pair of mics mounted on a stand connected to a DAT recorder...

Obvious noob, but I'm looking to spend maybe $300-500 for an easy way to make good stereo recordings onto my laptop. No fancy mixing required...

Anyway thanks for your patience, I hope you can give me some ideas and suggestions!
 
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Yo "Fiddler on the Roof:>]

For the price you mention, I don't know how "GOOD" you can make recordings.

For around 1k, you can get a Yam AW1600 multi-tracker which WILL give you quality recordings if you can cut the learning curve. Or, if you have a friend who knows the box to steer you along the routings.

I recently got a great violin track from my synth on an original song. Synths had some great patches.

I suppose a Korg, or a Fostex box might do you good too. But, whichever, you will definitely get BETTER results than the mini-disc. I had one of those and it was fine until technology got better and better.

Good luck and try before you buy if possible.

Green Hornet:cool:
 
Hi Fiddler, and welcome to the HR forums. Good to have a classical musician here.

While I have not done what you are trying to do, I have begun recently looking in to what it would take. I would like to record my daughter's violin performances. And, I would like to go as high quality as possible.

The high end of the budget that you state will buy you one good microphone, say one of the AKG B 414 models. Since the mike will need phantom power, you are going to need a mixer that supplies it. I did not look at USB devices, but probably another couple hundred, max, there. Then there are stands, etc for the mike, minor cost compared to the mike and mixer. And the mike comes with an isolation mount.

For stereo count on two mikes. Sorry, sad but true. If you want top quality, like they use on Zukerman, Shaham, etc., it is going to cost. Second, in the stratospheric realm of miking classical instruments for absolute top quality recording, I'm sure that AKG, as expensive as it is, is only the bottom of the line. I've seen mikes that cost over $10,000 per matched pair, and some single ones actually approaching that level.

It might be more cost effective for you to go to a good studio that knows how to mike a violin (see the AKG website for info on miking a violin, www.akg.com) and have the recording done professionally.

But, maybe you won't need to go that high on the ladder to get what you want. I do tend to start my research at the top, then when the price-induced heart failure passes, hunt around until I find the best that can be obtained by we who lack Deutche Grammaphone's budgets.

You can start to learn a lot about microphones at this forum, and reading and analyzing everything you can at the manufacturer's forums.
 
Hi Fiddler, and welcome to the HR forums. Good to have a classical musician here.

While I have not done what you are trying to do, I have begun recently looking in to what it would take. I would like to record my daughter's violin performances. And, I would like to go as high quality as possible.

The high end of the budget that you state will buy you one good microphone, say one of the AKG B 414 models. Since the mike will need phantom power, you are going to need a mixer that supplies it. I did not look at USB devices, but probably another couple hundred, max, there. Then there are stands, etc for the mike, minor cost compared to the mike and mixer. And the mike comes with an isolation mount.

For stereo count on two mikes. Sorry, sad but true. If you want top quality, like they use on Zukerman, Shaham, etc., it is going to cost. Second, in the stratospheric realm of miking classical instruments for absolute top quality recording, I'm sure that AKG, as expensive as it is, is only the bottom of the line. I've seen mikes that cost over $10,000 per matched pair, and some single ones actually approaching that level.

It might be more cost effective for you to go to a good studio that knows how to mike a violin (see the AKG website for info on miking a violin) and have the recording done professionally.

But, maybe you won't need to go that high on the ladder to get what you want. I do tend to start my research at the top, then when the price-induced heart failure passes, hunt around until I find the best that can be obtained by we who lack Deutche Grammaphone's budgets.

You can start to learn a lot about microphones at this forum, and reading and analyzing everything you can at the manufacturer's forums.
Yikes... Ok, well I'm not aiming for DG or EMI standards here! In any case I want to have the setup at home so that I can make "reasonable" quality recordings for my own reference as well as being able to send them off for competition audition tapes and whatnot. I was imagining that the weakest link in a simple MiniDisc setup is the crappy mic (the typical battery-powered stereo mics often used in these setups, I'd post a link but due to my post-count I can't!).

So... I'm aiming for anything better than this - on a modest budget. Could something like the M-Audio MobilePre be enough to hook up a stereo pair of mics to my laptop?

Aren't there any "decent" mics that can be had for like $100??
 
Not familiar with the M-Audio mobile pre you mention, but will look it up this afternoon/evening. FWIW if I decide to go digital with my daughter's recordings, I would use an M-Audio card (internal in a PC), so at least in my opinion, M-Audio has the quality level right. Basically I think you want a very high sampling rate, like 192KHz, and good bit-depth, like 24 bits or even 32. My other option is to record on my half-track, high-speed mastering version Revox A77. Should I need to make digital media then, I can easily send it to the PC.

There are some mikes that are good bit less expensive than the AKG 414 line, but again, I have to look around a bit this evening.

Meanwhile, maybe some others, with more experience will post and give you more options.

Disclaimer: I love classical music, and ditto my daughter, so I tend to want the very best for both. Hence the price level that I found, and my reluctance to go too low.
 
You are going to need some software too, to record with. Or do Macs have the stuff you need built in to the OS?
 
Try the following link to get started, if you haven't found it already. It is an article about miking the violin and acoustic instruments at AKG, with recommendations for mikes.

http://www.akg.com/site/product_tipps/powerslave,id,16,nodeid,12,_language,EN.html

For what ever my opinion may be worth, I'll look at the M-Audio pre you mentioned later on. My daughter and wife are actually at her violin studio right now and I have to get off my $#@ and clean up the mess I made in the kitchen before they get home.
 
Just thinking . . . some of the improvements you want to make in your recorded sound may be due to the microphones, and some may be due to the environemnt. Poke around here, and at places like AKG for info on studio design. The principles that you learn about ambient noise, echo, room reverb, etc. will apply at your home when you are recording. Just by controlling this stuff properly you should be able to increase the quality of your recorded sound quite a bit. Of course better mikes help too, and that should be doable for a reasonable price.

Also, some may say that you don't need super high sample rates and bit depth for recording if you are only going to write it to a CD. Others will argue that it pays to work with the best quality files you can to start with. And, it depends on how you will listen to the files your self. Of course you will send 44.1KHz/16 bit CDs to competitions, etc. but if you hook your computer up to a good stereo system to listen to yourself, you can play back the original files and have sound considerably better than "CD quality."
 
Naiant. $35 and sounds surprisingly good. Would I use it on my wife's electric violin? Sure would. And will be soon.

This sounds really promising - and I'm all for homebew-style gear.

Maybe I should buy a Firewire interface instead of USB, with the money I save on mics??? :D
 
Naiant can do the job but you'll have to learn the craft as well. Try searches within the bbs on DavidK. He does wonderful recordings of his violins (he uses an electric one too) as well as keyboards & knows how to capture his instrument very, very well indeed, (doesn't hurt that he's a wonderful player as well).
I think that the right mics, room & a reasonable program shoudl get good results. It doesn't have to be expensive - but even with the Naiants you'll need a nice preamp & a flexible interface of some kind.
Search davidk!
 
FWIW if I decide to go digital with my daughter's recordings, I would use an M-Audio card (internal in a PC), so at least in my opinion, M-Audio has the quality level right. Basically I think you want a very high sampling rate, like 192KHz, and good bit-depth, like 24 bits or even 32.

Sample rate is completely unimportant, and there is no technical reason to record at a rate above 88.2 or 96kHz. 24 bit depth is fine; I am unaware of any 32 bit converters (unnecessary, as no one needs a 192dB dynamic range, and the electronics can't manage more than 24 bit dynamic range anyway). Many software programs function at a 32 bit float internal rate, that is to aid in calculation and will be reduced to 24 bit for output.

The critical factors in a good violin recording are performer, instrument, and ROOM. Mic, preamp, converters are all secondary.
 
The critical factors in a good violin recording are performer, instrument, and ROOM. Mic, preamp, converters are all secondary.

All things remaining the same, you will definitely get a better recording with a USB or Firewire interface and a pair of Naiants. MD Recorders use compression, so you lose sound quality with them, even if you used 'the world's greatest mic" with it. If you ran your cheap stereo mic through an interface, into your computer, you would most probably get a better quality recording than what you get with the MD recorder. With that said, definitely upgrade your mic. However, remember that the Naiants are omni, which means either close mic'ing or finding a room with good acoustics. If I were recording classical violin, I would definitely be looking around for a room with good acoustics to record in...well, that and a great violinist.

Since you are a professional violin player and you will most probably continue to record yourself (just as I started recording because I am a professional singer and wanted to record myself), I would use the extra money to buy a better interface, and if you find you want to continue recording you'll have a set up that works that you can use while you figure out what mics you may want to upgrade to.

BTW, I started with an MD recorder and stereo mic too.

Juan
Juan
 
I choose not to discuss specific recording gear, however, having recorded violin a few times, I can offer the following general observations.

Violin, as much if not more than most acoustic instruments - needs space to develop its full sound. In and of itself, a violin can been a harse sounding instrument (natually the skill of the player is a huge factor). That means you need to record from a few feet away from the intrument (to allow the sound to develop). Which in turn, means room sound becomes an important part of the recorded sound. You must have a decent sounding & properly treated room, or the recorded sound will include reflections, etc. (and depending on the room construction/materials - those reflection could be very problematic). I've never found the phrase "warm sounding room" to be more important than when recording a violin.

I personally have found LD condensor mics are best suited for violin. In turn, a mic that has certain warmer characteristics can the the preferred choice.
 
Yeah, it's been my experience as well that the room is one of the key factors for making a good recording (when pros have made them for me).

I think if I were to buy my own equipment, I'd need to borrow/rent a decent space.

What's your experience with recording in churches? Renting out concert halls is obviously quite expensive.
 
The room/acoustics of recording space is where I was headed yesterday afternoon in my last post. Was thinking of suggesting that you read up, here and at other sources, about how to modify and control the sound of the area you are recording in, and try out different things to modify the acoustics of your recording space, all the while using your existing recording equipment. That way you get to learn about how to control the sound that way, without any cost for mics/mixer, etc. You can buy the better mics, etc. at a later date. Shure and AKG have some articles about this, as, of course, does this site.

Even if you closely manage the acoustics, I'd still be leery of using an omnidirectional mic. They do have flatter response, usually, but there are trade offs, like they are going to be much more sensitive to room acoustics, and placement vis-a-vis the instrument (what happens if you move around a lot when you are playing?). I guess you have to learn as much as you can, then make your choices based on what seems like it would work the best for you. Perhaps I should point out that Shure and AKG both recommend primarily cardioids for acoustic instruments. Naiant recommends an omni, but that is all they make.

I looked at the M-Audio box you refered to in your first post, and even if one accepts mshilarious' argument that sample rate does not matter, and his suggestion of 88.2KHz or 96KHz (if it does not matter, why not just 44.1KHz?), then the MobliePre still won't cut it.

For auditions, do they want tapes, or CDs?

For violin practice and listening to yourself, if you have the funds, I'd go so far as to suggest getting a friend who knows what they are doing, and finding a good, really good tape deck. Like a Revox A77 or B77 (made by Studer), in very good condition, the mics you need, a phantom power supply (fairly cheap) and recording direct to tape. Get the recorder serviced, aligned and tweaked for whatever tape you are going to use, I recommend something like RMGI SM911. At the risk of starting a flame war here, the sound quality should be much higher than any reasonably affordable digital system will give, and the added cost of the tape deck (a couple of hundred bucks, tops if you shop carefully) and the phantom power supply ($70 or so) is minimal. Tape is expensive, but if you are not archiving lots of practice sessions, it is designed to be reused. My 2 cents.
 
Must add, that the suggestion of recording practice on tape assumes that you have a good to very good stereo system to play it back through. If your laptop's speakers or some computer sound system is what you are going to listen through, it won't matter.
 
OP, sorry for making a mess on your thread. I don't keep up with the USB vs. Firewire interfaces, they change models a lot, I don't use them, so . . . find one you like and go with it. Get the best room you can to record in. The rest will fall into place.

You don't need to worry about the rest of this post, but I can't let some of this slide:


Even if you closely manage the acoustics, I'd still be leery of using an omnidirectional mic. They do have flatter response, usually, but there are trade offs, like they are going to be much more sensitive to room acoustics, and placement vis-a-vis the instrument (what happens if you move around a lot when you are playing?).

True with respect to room acoustics, but false with respect to instrument position. Indeed, a cardioid microphone by definition has a greater difference in on- and off-axis response. An omnidirectional mic varies much less (though still some). Therefore, if you move around a lot, the cardioid mic will result in a greater difference than the omni. It's even worse if you wander into the nearfield of the cardioid mic, where there is proximity effect.

Large diaphragm microphones have a greater difference in on- and off-axis response as well. This is not to suggest a LD mic cannot be used; of course they can, and often sound good. But one should be careful not to confuse the euphonic character of a particular microphone with the physical qualities of that type of mic.

Regarding acoustics, I agree that to properly capture a good classical violin sound, some distance is required. The greater the distance, the more the room will come into play, irrespective of polar pattern of the mic. If your room sounds boxy, the cardioid mic will reject boxy sound from the rear, but still pick it up from the front. So what have you gained? Not very much, really. The primary requirement is still a good room, not a particular polar response.


Perhaps I should point out that Shure and AKG both recommend primarily cardioids for acoustic instruments. Naiant recommends an omni, but that is all they make.

Hmmm, is that because Shure pioneered the Unidyne capsule? Or that, as a company, they have primarily a live sound orientation? I don't want to dump on Shure, they make great mics. My Shure KSM141 is switchable pattern; I believe they recommend it very highly for acoustic instruments. I haven't switched it to cardioid in a very long time. The AKG 414 mics are switchable pattern too . . . maybe there is something to these other patterns after all . . .



I looked at the M-Audio box you refered to in your first post, and even if one accepts mshilarious' argument that sample rate does not matter, and his suggestion of 88.2KHz or 96KHz (if it does not matter, why not just 44.1KHz?), then the MobliePre still won't cut it.

You don't need to accept my argument, it is demonstrable. I have done so in an old thread here somewhere; Dan Lavry has argued the point quite convincingly. 44.1kHz does work fine. It has better frequency response and dynamic range than your suggestion below.


For violin practice and listening to yourself, if you have the funds, I'd go so far as to suggest getting a friend who knows what they are doing, and finding a good, really good tape deck. Like a Revox A77 or B77 (made by Studer), in very good condition, the mics you need, a phantom power supply (fairly cheap) and recording direct to tape. Get the recorder serviced, aligned and tweaked for whatever tape you are going to use, I recommend something like RMGI SM911.

I don't even need to discuss sound quality (I presume it would be OK), but this is a rather preposterous suggestion for someone who want to spend $100 and use a USB interface. And they would still need to burn a CD, unless they can send the tape reel for their audition. And if we aren't talking the high-speed versions, the noise and frequency response specs suffer. Leave that stuff for serious analog hobbyists handy with a soldering iron, not working musicians who want a simple solution.
 
i'm with MSH.... you guys are over thinking this and probably scareing the hell outta this poor sap... relax... a little room treatment to your personal practice space is a good idea... or atleast a reflexion filter type device behind the stereo pair is in order... personally i'ld think about a pair of AT 4041 small diagphram condensors... they'ld be killer for this... since you're not wanting more thatn 2 channels almost any interface would work... check for phantom powering.... you'll need that for condensor mics.... good luck ... and yes check out davidk...
 
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