Recording levels what is the proper way?

[Ford Van]

I guess im asking how to get rid of noise before you hear the tracks come in to get that nice clean smooth sound..

Now Glen, you can complicate something this simple all day long, but at the end of the day, the answer is simply what me and others said in FAR fewer words.

You don't need to be the savior of all things in audio!

The fact is, he wasn't looking for the "cause", he was looking for the "solution".

 

[Ford Van]

And by the way I DID sue you. Pay attention and try to keep up!

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Just so you know , I used the guide and can easily determine whats best for my line level inputs , But my pre- amps are a different story and I use those more often, maybe my china LDC is ultra hot cause I 'm always turning the pre's way down.

Thanks for the good words, flat.

That app is meant as a Gain 101 type instruction guide, not as a hard-and-fast rulebook. i tried to put as many caveats in there as I could about "generial idea" and "normally" and that there will always be exceptions. I'm not going to argue or disagree that you may have to do something different than the "standard guide procedure", it's cool that you are smart enough to know when such deviation is necessary.

ADD............. Sorry that post was incomplete !! it was supposed to be 5dBv input = 0dBfs output

That probably is a consumer grade card is actually operating on a line input level of -10dBV; i.e. 0VU = -10dBV. Therefore it's actually giving you 15dB of headroom above it's own line level. Therefore, 0VU/-10dBv = -15dBFS on that card.

If you try pumping +4dBu commercial grade line level into it, though, you'd have to crank that down about 8dBs first before going into that card.

I also don't know how to get that horizontal s in front of it!

Upper left-hand corner of the keyboard, usually to the left of the numbers. .

G.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

The fact is, he wasn't looking for the "cause", he was looking for the "solution".

And isn't the best solution to get rid of the cause? Getting things right on the business end of that signal chain would sure save him in effort having to mask it al the in mixing, and would probably result in better tracking overall.

And I suggest you re-read the post as well, Ed. The TITLE of the post was asking about proper recording levels, not about bandaids to bad recording levels. And he also asked "how to get rid of noise before you hear the tracks come in". I answered those questions correctly and succinctly.

Me a "savior"? Now that's a fucking joke. You're starting to sound like chessrock. Christ. what the fuck do either of you guys care what I do or do not do? Why do you take such offense because I happen to be longer-winded than you are? Lighten up, Ed! It's not like I'm actually doing anything WRONG. I'm not trying to be anybody's savior for anything. I have too many of my own fucking problems, thank you very much.

G.

 

[Ford Van]

And isn't the best solution to get rid of the cause? Getting things right on the business end of that signal chain would sure save him in effort having to mask it al the in mixing, and would probably result in better tracking overall.

And I suggest you re-read the post as well, Ed. The TITLE of the post was asking about proper recording levels, not about bandaids to bad recording levels. And he also asked "how to get rid of noise before you hear the tracks come in". I answered those questions correctly and succinctly.

Me a "savior"? Now that's a fucking joke. You're starting to sound like chessrock. Christ. what the fuck do either of you guys care what I do or do not do? Why do you take such offense because I happen to be longer-winded than you are? Lighten up, Ed! It's not like I'm actually doing anything WRONG. I'm not trying to be anybody's savior for anything. I have too many of my own fucking problems, thank you very much.

G.

You seem VERY defensive about the length of your posts!

Be careful patting your own back old man!

The bottom line is this. You have NO idea what his track actually sounds like. He might be 100% happy with how it sounds, except that little bit of rushing noise from the amp in the beginning?

So you would have him re-track the whole fucking guitar because the amp makes rushing noise?

Pay SOME respect to people Glen. Just because they have a little problem doesn't mean they have to re-think their whole fucking approach to recording!

Savior, YES!!! I wonder when you have ANY time to actually record a band with all the typing you do here.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

You seem VERY defensive about the length of your posts!

Don't throw that on me, Ed. I'm defensive because you attacked. Geez, you really try to have to both ways, don't you. Attack a guy and then blame him for responding. It's laughable. .

Be careful patting your own back old man!

Ummmmmm.....What???

The bottom line is this. You have NO idea what his track actually sounds like.

And neither do you. Nobody here does. So I tried covering the possibilities instead of making a single assumption as to the answer.

He might be 100% happy with how it sounds, except that little bit of rushing noise from the amp in the beginning?

I agree on that.

So you would have him re-track the whole fucking guitar because the amp makes rushing noise?

No, of course not, unless he wants to. I never said anything about re-track. But if he got rid of the source for the next time he tracks, and the time after that, and after that, he'll be a lot happier than just living with it and dealing with it every time he records.

Pay SOME respect to people Glen.

WOW. Now THAT IS laughable coming from the guy who prides himself on his disrespect for others because - in his own words - "I am what I am".

Just because they have a little problem doesn't mean they have to re-think their whole fucking approach to recording!

Change what whole fucking approach? I may write books, Ed, but you write fantasy when you say shit like that.

You're too smart for this shit, Ed. You're just letting your temperment get the best of you, and you're arguing for argument sake now. Go find your other plyamate, chessrock to do that with. I'm not feeding your bear anymore here.

G.

 

[guitardude]

I agree with those here that are asking what kind of noise you are talking about.

If I were to take the context of your post at face value, the title of the post first sounds like you think there's an issue with your gain structure (the input and output levels at which you have the gear in your recording chain set.) This may well be the case, as described by those that mention the Presonus preamp gets noisy when the inpt is cranked too high. The key followup questions there are a)what kind of microphone are you using and how well matched is it to the Presonus preamp, and b)what are you recording that may be either too noisy or too quiet?

Which leads into the second part of the quite above: your specific mention of "guitar". Are you recording acoustic or electric? If acoustic, perhaps you're having to crank the pre too high because the source isn't loud enough. or perhaps you're just getting too much room noise, in which casse acoustics and maybe even fan noise from the computer itself is the source of the problem. If electric, is the problem that your git amp is simply too noisy? Perhaps you need to adjust the gain and the output volume on the amp to minimize noise. Remember, the amp does not necessarily have to be cranked to live playing levels to get the best sound on tape.

And finally, is the problem perhaps that you are cranking the gain too high because you feel you need to record with your levels near 0dBFS in your recording software? If so, you are probably recording at a much hotter level than you need to. With your recording faders on the computer set to uinty - no gain, no cut - set your preamp gain so that your signal is recording at an average of somewhere areound -18dBFS (give or take a few dBs), with the peaks no more somewhere around -6 to -9dBFS. You'll be recording plenty hot enough for digital and leaving yourself plenty of room for mixing, and you'll also be decreasing the noise level from the entire recording chain before it signifigantly.

Any one of the potential sources has a solution or two, you just need to be able to identify just where in the signal stage the source of the noise is coming from (it could be more than one of these.)

G.

Yikes!!! I didnt mean to cause a fight or war of posts! I wasnt even expecting these many responses!!

Anyway sometimes im lost for words on how to describe the "noise" im talking bout ...cuz it could be a bunch of things like people said.

To answer some of the questions...

Mic ST55 (Sterling Audio) ..I guess its a pretty nice mic...thats what i have right now...so im using it.

Im recording ACOUSTIC GUITAR. (fingerpicking stuff) (strumming picks up easier )..but the fingerpicking i crank the preamp to get a good response.



Im not really sure how to set my firebox to -18dBFS ??
Using cubase sx3...and the mixer i usually watch out for clipping...usually keep it in the yellow zone...

Thanks to with you all soon again.

 

[Myriad_Rocker]

Can't we all just get along?

 

[Farview]

It might be as simple as putting the mic closer to the guitar so you don't have to crank the preamp up. You could also finger pick harder

It's really hard to get recordings of quiet instruments when you don't have really quiet preamps and a really quiet room.

 

[flatfinger]

O.K. glenn, Thanks !

I studied it again , the card is an emu 1820m and the line level inputs are software selectable between + 4 and -10.
The specs section states that the line inputs are a 20dBu maximum ( for +4) and w/ your guide I decided I should set my VU zero reference to -16dBfs.

The pres are the Neutric variety and the scale on the pre's gain knobs are marked for both consumer and pro. the ranges are -10 to 25db for the center 1/4 plug in and +20 to 55db for the XLR ................. so basically they are stradling both worlds with that set up .
I understand why I don't need the gain up to much when using the XLR. But there is lots there for the 1/4 plug if I plugg in the guitar or something . To bad there is'nt quite enough for a nice ribbon mic.

Anyhow , I'm going to go from -14 to -16 for my 0VU reference from now on.
When I first started studing this stuff I always read that you should use -18 and -14 . I never under stood why those 2 "djour " standards were so popular . Kinda Ironic that I should end up right in the middle of those two @ -16 !!!!

Thanks for helping me to "get it " !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


P.S. sorry for the long-ass post!!!!!!!!!!!1

 

[flatfinger]

Hey guitar dude ,
If your mic is a cardioid pattern, you could get a proxemity effect going as you put it closer. Believe it or not , you might want to go with a omni pattern mic , as you can get real close (omni pattern does'nt have the prox effect , does'nt get bassy as you get closer).

You could get a better ratio of instrument vs. room in your signal that way and also not have to crank it so much .

Just a thought.


Good luck!!

 

[Gandalf]

I for one get a lot from reading Glen's long assed posts....... some others however, well................

 

[The Axis]

I always just look at the waveform of the recording and completely cut off any pre-start time from each track, so there is dead silence (or as close as electronically possible) before each instrument begins to play.

A PLAYING instrument almost always drowns out any noise floor that may still exist.

 

[Ford Van]

I always just look at the waveform of the recording and completely cut off any pre-start time from each track, so there is dead silence (or as close as electronically possible) before each instrument begins to play.

A PLAYING instrument almost always drowns out any noise floor that may still exist.

Yeah. In the analog console days, this was the purpose of mute and fader automation.

Noise on tracks are on EVERY freakin' recording, thus why things like mute automation were invented!

 

[true-eurt]

And by the way I DID sue you. Pay attention and try to keep up!

STF up ED...take your fat-headed-has-been-never-been ego somewhere else, where they give a damn....Glen and many others pwn your tired old "pay attention, keep up" shit all over the place.

Aren't you supposed to be doing your mom's dishes or sumpin'?

 

[The Axis]

Noise on tracks are on EVERY freakin' recording, thus why things like mute automation were invented!

Yeah, my Roland VS1680 has an automated function that will completely mute any track whose level falls below some user-selectable level. It will automatically un-mute when the playing starts. I assume nearly all digital recording systems have a similar function or plu-in available.

Of course it can be done manually also.

 

[guitardude]

Hey guitar dude ,
If your mic is a cardioid pattern, you could get a proxemity effect going as you put it closer. Believe it or not , you might want to go with a omni pattern mic , as you can get real close (omni pattern does'nt have the prox effect , does'nt get bassy as you get closer).

You could get a better ratio of instrument vs. room in your signal that way and also not have to crank it so much .

Just a thought.


Good luck!!

Hey cool. Yeah i have a ST55 by Sterling. I guess its a good mic. Its also Cardioid! I used to use pencil condensers...(mxl603's) I think i need to buy some new mics.

What do you use?

 

[flatfinger]

I'm actually using 604's . they come with omni and cardioid capsules now !!!

 

[noisewreck]

I am really starting to get sick and tired of this drama around here.

Just admit the fact that you guys are hot for each other and just go on and have your threesome already, instead of being jealous of each other.

Jizzus.

 

[Bulls Hit]

Yeah come on Ed. It's gotten old already.

Nobody can be bothered reading that bulldust in every second thread. Keep it in the cave where it can be safely ignored