Recording Gear for student graduating university.

[nybbles]

I'll post my questions bout mics here, and a similar thread about mixers in the appropriate place...

OK, here's my story and what I need and am looking for:

(Keep in mind, I will do mostly recording of classical music which requires different setups, etc.)

ALSO keep in mind, I don't want to spend over $200/mic.

I am a classical violinist who has gotten into recording/editing and have started my own little recording business. However, I am looking into expanding my range of equipment. My main recording purposes are recitals and auditions for fellow classical musicians at the university I am attending. I am definitely not an expert on microphones, and realize that they are non-returnable, and was wondering which ones would be the best for use in concert halls on a tripod, using the X-Y pattern. I eventually would like to also buy at least 2 spot mics to use closer to the instrumentalists (on floor stands next to the stage). This has worked especially well with stringed instruments and some woodwinds.

I currently only have access to the university's equipment. And have had the best results with 2 Audio-Technica mics, but they have a very airy sound to them, and 2 Shure microphones, but those were donated to the university, and are very very high quality (and definitely out of my price range).

OK, that covers mics...

Now, I've asked around and people have given me the following recommendations on mics:

Rode NT5
Shure KSM109

But I found, again, Behringer, but I don't know... they just sound good from my understanding of music tech, but that doesn't mean that they are good... I dont' know anything bout manufacturers, etc.

Behringer B-5 (using these in X-Y on tripod)
Behringer B2-Pro (I would use these as spot mics close to the instrumentalists)

From what I've read the B-5 is definitely for acoustic instruments.

Oh, forgot to mention, most recording would be done in either concert hall type setting (where it is in front of stage, nothing on stage or hanging above) and maybe in my living room back home...

OK, so for recital hall recording: 2 mics on tripod in X-Y pattern, and for some instruments spot mics nearer the players. Which mics would be best?

Thanks for taking the time to read through all of this... I really appreciate all who take the time to read through and respond.

THANK-YOU!

 

[wheelema]

Please advise on which Shure mics you were using. The members on this board may be able to recommend a lower priced mic with the same characteristics. A couple of small condensors like the Studio Projects C4 might suit. $319 for a matched pair. Look at the M-Audio DMP-3 for the preamp. $160 for two channels.

Too often (I did this) people look at the mic and preamp as two seperate purchases, focusing more on the mic than the preamp. Big mistake.

 

[nybbles]

Thanks for your reply.

I'm not sure what type of Shure's they are. They are kind of soft sounding though, so not my favorite, but definitely high quality. I'll have to check out the model number on them, when I go in the hall next week.

As for pre-amp, I was planning on going through a mixer, so wouldn't that have a built-in pre-amp. I made a post in the "Everything Else" forum about mixer... recommendations would be appreciated. Thanks.

Would those Studio Projects be good for recording stringed instruments, since I'm a violinist, I just want to make sure (as they would be primarily used for me, of course, and the others are on the side jobs... )

 

[wheelema]

Small condensors, like the Rode NT5, Shure KSM109, and Studio Projects C4 respond very quickly, and all seem to be priced close to each other. As far as the preamp(s) is/are concerned, I would be very surprised if anyone on this board would endorse the preamps that you get with your typical mixer, specially given the budget you stated in the other thread.

You have not stated how you are going to be recording this for posterity, but if you are going into a PC the signal chain I would recommend would be...

• Studio Projects C4 into...
• M-Audio DMP3 dual channel microphone preamp into...
• M-Audio Audiophile 24/96 soundcard (PCI) into...
• whatever recording software you have for your PC. A crippled version of N-Track is free for the download.

This would give you a very nice product for approx. (sans computer) $580.

p.s. I was reviewing this post and it struck me just how much you may be undervaluing the preamp. A great preamp (and while the DMP3 isn't GREAT it is hell and gone from sucky) can make your recordings great, and a lousy preamp (and the preamps on a $200 mixer will be lousy) will make your recordings lousy.

 

[nybbles]

Adobe Audition (that's what I got) and will be recording onto. Hmmm... but what if I wanted more than 2 mics (looking into the future).... I would need the mixer then... I figured the cheaper mixers would have "eh" preamps... But any idea which one would have the "highest" quality in my price range.

As for soundcard, any external ideas? I'm currently stuck on laptop, which is another hindrance... Though, I plan on getting some sort of other "recording device" in the future...

 

[wheelema]

... if I wanted more than 2 mics (looking into the future).... I would need the mixer then...

No. You can mix in your application. You would need a preamp for each mic channel. If you record vocals you will need a compressor/limiter, and if you mix vocals and instruments, you will need EQ.

...any idea which (mixer) would have the "highest" quality in my price range...

Well, actually, no. Although I have heard that the Yamaha preamps are as good as can be expected in that price range.

...as for soundcard, any external ideas? I'm currently stuck on laptop, which is another hindrance... Though, I plan on getting some sort of other "recording device" in the future...

Well, M-Audio makes an external version of the Audiophile 2496, but I do not know how good it is. Wait until tommorrow when all the early birds chime in.

 

[wheelema]

Nybbles,

I have been following the discussion that you started in the other forum and while Ronan has a point, I am sure that he appreciates that you have to start SOMEWHERE. It all hinges on your budget and your expectations. I would absolutely drop the mixer however, your funds are better spent elsewhere.

And of course, if it was easy, everyone would be doing it. Okay, at least they would be doing it WELL.

 

[Innovations]

For most XY applications a matched pair of small diameter condensers would be all that you need, Others mentioned the C4, another choice would be the MXL603SPR. You can do an awfull lot with solo instrumentals and small ensembles, particularly classical, with just an XY pair going into a dual channel preamp into the sound card. For most classical ensembles you really want to capture the real sound of the ensemble playing in their ordinary physical relationship to each other together in the space. Having a whole bunch of close mics tends to complicate things unnecessarily.

 

[wheelema]

Nybbles,

I was just bumming around on Mercenary and I came across these mics from Avenson Audio.

Here is one review from a user. The beauty of buying from Mercenary Audio is that the owner, Fletcher, really stands behind his products. And unlike a lot of vendors, he apparently only sells stuff that he believes in.

May be worth a look. $500 for a matched pair.

 

[timboZ]

I have some recordings that I did of a symphony this past weekend.
If someone has a ftp site I can upload them to for you to check out
Let me know. Or I could email them to you

1st set of mics I used EMC8000 in XY.
2nd I used 2 AKG 3000 and 2 AKG c3000b in spaced pairs.

 

[Marik]

Nybbles,

I specialize exclusively on classical recordings, and was exactly in the same situation as you, recording for many years at University. I think you might want to have a look at aforementioned SP C4, as with cardioid and omni capsules it basically gives you 4 microphones--you can experiment with cardioids as X-Y or ORTF, or with omnies you can try Jecklin disk. The last can give you a beautiful stereo image, if acoustics of your concert hall are good. The disk itself is quite expensive (about $250), but you can DIY it with very little effort. Later you can add to this setup one variable pattern LD and experiment with MS techniques, using one cardioid C4 for Mid, and one fig8 LD for Side. I love both Jecklin disk and MS for more distant micing, which used for classical recordings. MS will let you change stereo spread while mastering. Don't forget, you will also need to put some money for very good isolation headphones, for on stage monitoring, for micing.

 

[nybbles]

thanks all for your comments and suggestions. I really appreciate them.

Marik - any suggestions on the headsets, I was hoping to spend around or under $75 for those.

timboZ - I'll take a listen you can email them to me, I have no problem with that nybbles AT musicalhorizon.com .

Thanks again!

 

[Marik]

Marik - any suggestions on the headsets, I was hoping to spend around or under $75 for those.

Extreme Isolation headphones would more or less fit the bill. I had them, but did not like and went for AKG K171, which I like much better. If you can stretch your budget to ~$130, I'd recommend AKGs.

Also, re: ECM8000. These are surprisingly good for the price, and can be good for distant micing of loud sources (like orchestra, etc.), but can be problematic with closer micing, as they wouldn't hold much more than 90db SPL without serious distortions. On the other hand, with some quiter sources (esp. baroque music) they can be noisy. IMO, C4 omnies are much more versatile.

 

[DJL]

From what I've read the B-5 is definitely for acoustic instruments.

The Behringer B5 can be used for the same things as the Studio Projects C4 and cost less. http://www.behringer.com/B-5/index.cfm?lang=ENG

 

[Marik]

DJL,

Have you had chance to compare C4 and B5? What are your thoughts?
I saw both of them inside, and B5 is full of cheap ceramic capacitors, which dirt the sound in significant way. Hey, isn't it the reason why it is so much cheaper?

 

[DJL]

Both the Studio Projects C4 and Behringer B5 are made in China by 797 Audio.

Have you had chance to compare C4 and B5?

No, I haven't... how about you, have you compared the C4 and B5 yet? .

I saw both of them inside, and B5 is full of cheap ceramic capacitors, which dirt the sound in significant way. Hey, isn't it the reason why it is so much cheaper?

Bummer, if that's true, that doesn't say much for 797 Audio. Anyway, way cool... where did you see the insides of both mics, please post the link or photos. Thanks

 

[Marik]

No, I haven't... how about you, have you compared the C4 and B5 yet?

Not directly. I saw with my eyes their circuit boards, and had chance to compare their capsules in the same tube circuit I built. The B5 capsule is noticably inferior, IMHO. IMO, the difference in capsules sound is due to the fact that C4 is 3um, and B5 is 6um. Also, B5 has rods in front of the diaphragm, which heavily affects its HF response. To be fair, I did not hear (and compare) them stock, but this difference in capsules (once again, please note, in the same circuit), as well as crappy parts in B5 make me believe that B5 just cannot sound up to C4 standard. In fact, I just fell in love with C4 capsule, and believe it is really very very good.

Bummer, if that's true, that doesn't say much for 797 Audio.

I think it has nothing to do with 797. Each product, including microphone capsules, has what it's called "target price". There is nothing wrong with 797, and IMO there is nothing wrong with 797 making cheaper capsule for B'ger, who wants to make some cheap crap.

Anyway, way cool... where did you see the insides of both mics, please post the link or photos. Thanks

As I wrote, I saw it with my eyes. I did not take any pics--sorry, you are still in suspense.

 

[noisedude]

John Scrip (Massive Master) is crazy about the M-Audio Solaris mics which he used to record some orchestral-type thing a while back. I would also not go the mixer route, although the Yamaha MG mixer pres are much better than Behringer mixers, the step up to a DMP3 is a big one!

Headphones ... Sennheiser HD280 Pro or the Shure E2C (in-ear) are what I use in live settings for various applications.

 

[timboZ]

nybbles

I sent you 2 clips of Brahms Academic Festival Overture Opus 80.
The first one I used 2 EMC 8000
The second one I used 2 AKG C3000 and 2 AKG C3000b.
Let me know what you think.

Timbo

 

[DJL]

Marik... Yeah, I know what you mean about cheap Chinese made crap... anyway if you ever get a chance to compare the Studio Projects C4 and Behringer B5 let me know what you think. I'd still like to see the insides of both mics... it's hard for me to believe you didn't take pictures... oh well. By-the-way, the B5 doesn't sound bad and is a lot less noisier than the EMC8000 and as you already know it cost much less than the C4.