Recording ethics

  • Thread starter Thread starter dkerwood
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i disagree with the "if you can't cut it in the studio then you can't cut it live". playing live has a certain degree of energy in the air that you simply can't reproduce by listening to a recorded drum track and trying to play along. its so much better to time pauses and to hit your strings a little bit harder and play a little bit faster when there are other people doing it along with you.
but then again maybe we're not talking about the same style of music i'm talking about, who knows?
 
Yeah but this is that guy's band--my guess is he wants it to sound "perfect" and is concerned about the ethics of misrepresenting the band's performance. I'm here to tell you it is done all the time.

I don't agree with it personally, but it's part of the job.

The reality of his situation is that some members aren't up to snuff and are UNWILLING to put the time in to record it right. This guy is taking HIS TIME to put forward an effort to get the music to sound as good as he can make it and they aren't even willing to put a real effort into their musicianship. I say SCREW THEM--if they could play the part they'd be on the album.

However, I wouldn't exactly broadcast this because it *******WILL********** cause a ton of bad blood. Just let them think that they played on the album.

I guess you could say I really don't give a crap about this issue because I'm a little sick of the marginal ability of musicians these days. It's just pathetic how much some people suck.
 
treymonfauntre said:
i disagree with the "if you can't cut it in the studio then you can't cut it live".
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It seems there are a lot of people somehow not living in reality in this thread.

Spend a couple of years behind a mixing console in a recording studio for 40+ hours a week and see if you hold this same attitude.

If there were a shred of truth to that there would be *SO* many more live albums out there. Ever wonder WHY the practice of rock bands doing live albums has dropped off so much in recent years? Probably because your Fallout Boys, Good Charlottes and other shitbands can barely manage to play a powerchord.
 
treymonfauntre said:
i disagree with the "if you can't cut it in the studio then you can't cut it live". playing live has a certain degree of energy in the air that you simply can't reproduce by listening to a recorded drum track and trying to play along. its so much better to time pauses and to hit your strings a little bit harder and play a little bit faster when there are other people doing it along with you.
but then again maybe we're not talking about the same style of music i'm talking about, who knows?
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There's a HUGE difference between playing loosely live and adding a bit of improvisional energy, and having marginal skills.

HUGE difference.

There is NOTHING that says that players with decent skills have to sound exactly like a recording. But it is a total other thing to have say that having marginal skills is not noticable live. It is. Always.
 
Cloneboy Studio said:
Moral of the story: IF YOU WANNA PLAY ON YOUR OWN ALBUM, DON'T SUCK.
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I think I've adopted my new motto for life. But seriously, can't we all just "get along"?



Great post by the way (as he sips coffee).
 
Cloneboy Studio said:
Spend a couple of years behind a mixing console in a recording studio for 40+ hours a week and see if you hold this same attitude.
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Been there, done that. Still don't agree with you.
 
Ford Van said:
Been there, done that. Still don't agree with you.
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That's cool. Some people have a hands-off approach.

Ask yourself this though: what would you do if you were recording a large budget, major label album and the suits told you to replace some performances? What then?

Keep in mind that the label might throw you 6 albums a year, and the client maybe--just maybe--one job every 2-3 years....
 
What I would do in a major label release and what I would do with a small local band using inadequate musicians are two TOTALLY different things.

You are making a lot of insinuations about how I work, and yet, you have NO idea how I work.

I used to have an attitude like yours, and applied it to small local bands. It didn't work, and usually contributed to ill feelings that I didn't need floating around at sessions.
 
Cloneboy Studio said:
Trust me: if you can't cut it in the studio you sure as hell cannot cut it live.

No you can't. Don't believe me? Try recording one a show and listen to the playback.
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While I do appreciate your enthusiasm toward this matter, I'm going to have to disagree with you on the above.

Yes, you're absolutely right about recording a live show. It likely won't be up to par with the studio recording. I'm not talking about RECORDING a live show, though. I'm talking about presenting a powerful, fun, inclusive live show. We're talking stage presence, crowd interaction... the SHOW, in which music is only a part.

Frankly, there's something about the adrenaline pumping and the crowd cheering that just gets you playing with more intensity. It's hard to do that when you're sitting in a front-room-turned-studio with your other band members sitting on the couch watching you play. I know that it's a case of professionalism, but I don't expect these guys to be seasoned pros the first time being put on tape.

For the record, some of my favorite albums are live albums. :D
 
Cloneboy Studio said:
That's cool. Some people have a hands-off approach.

Ask yourself this though: what would you do if you were recording a large budget, major label album and the suits told you to replace some performances? What then?

Keep in mind that the label might throw you 6 albums a year, and the client maybe--just maybe--one job every 2-3 years....
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I can tell you this, though, if I went in to record my music with you and the finished product didn't have ME PLAYING on it, I'd be exceedingly upset. And any musician worth their salt could tell, I promise.
 
dkerwood said:
I can tell you this, though, if I went in to record my music with you and the finished product didn't have ME PLAYING on it, I'd be exceedingly upset. And any musician worth their salt could tell, I promise.
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Not to sound like a dick, but if this is the case, then why did you ask your original question? You would be pissed if you were replaced, but you're wondering if its ok to replace your bandmates' performances? That's fucked, if you ask me.
 
Adam P said:
Not to sound like a dick, but if this is the case, then why did you ask your original question? You would be pissed if you were replaced, but you're wondering if its ok to replace your bandmates' performances? That's fucked, if you ask me.
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Might be worded slightly harsh, but Adam has a point there, dk.....
 
Adam P said:
Not to sound like a dick, but if this is the case, then why did you ask your original question? You would be pissed if you were replaced, but you're wondering if its ok to replace your bandmates' performances? That's fucked, if you ask me.
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Welcome to my internal conflict, folks. lol... Also a bit of an internal dialogue as I'm deciding what to do. I'm just posting thoughts and reactions to points that you guys bring up, as well as things that occur to me. I don't mean for any of these posts to be a certainty, I'm just posting what I think as I think it.

I would never just flat out replace them, at least not without their permission, and even then, I'd be a little uneasy about it. We've got one track where my drummer insisted that I record it instead of him. I hated the idea, but I did it at his request. He's even said that I can record all the drum parts myself if I want, and that would be fine. I won't though, because HE is the drummer in the band, not me.

What I was considering was just playing my own version of some of the parts (trying my best to do exactly what they would do and how they would do it) and splicing through some questionable parts in the original track.

Hmmm... it just dawned on me that a hired studio musician would likely do just what I'm considering. He would study my track and play EXACTLY what I played, or wanted to play... and would just correct my mistakes. Maybe I wouldn't know. How would I know the difference between splicing 10 takes of ME playing and one take of someone else playing my notes?
 
dkerwood said:
I can tell you this, though, if I went in to record my music with you and the finished product didn't have ME PLAYING on it, I'd be exceedingly upset. And any musician worth their salt could tell, I promise.
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Hah, this is a measly threat because:

Any musician worth their salt doesn't have to be replaced!!!!

Trust me, the bad musicians will *WANT* to believe it's their playing if/when you do have it replaced. 100% of the time without fail. Heck, I've even heard guys BRAG about how sweet they are when it wasn't even their performance! A *TON* of hilarity ensues for those in the know.

9 times out of 10 the dude being replaced is the bassist (usually by the band's guitar player).

But....................

Generally speaking, it's something I shy away from unless directed *BY* the band or label themselves (basically, whoever is paying the bills). I like to play it safe that way professionally.

Here I can play devil's advocate, and be a lot more honest about my feelings than I can in session. Let's face it--it is ANNOYING when you are working on a project and everything is going to crap because of that one guy who sucks balls on their instrument. So yeah, a lot of times it will have to suck so the musician can play on their album and not have their widdle feelings hurt.

Do I wish I could replace 'em? Hell yeah. Do I replace 'em all the time? Unfortunately not.

I'm sorry but I have ********ZERO*********** pity for musician's that can't play their own songs. It's not like music is that darn hard--especially when you WROTE IT.

I guess your choices are thus:

1.) Be honest and have a marginal album with compromised performances that you will regret the rest of your life.

2.) Be underhanded and get an album that at least sounds the way it should. Heck, chances are 2 years from now you won't be speaking to these losers... err... hack musicians anyways.

Damn I'm a cynical bastard these days. You can tell I quit smoking 2 weeks ago, right? :)
 
Compromise

Hi,
If the bassist won't come back & record then YOU record BUT tell her that she'll have to come back & do her own takes or yours will stand.

With the BITS of drumming - do a take of the bits & play them in & out to the drummer. Ask her/him to consider recording some ODs in the same ilk or to record a whole new take &/or mix all three together etc.

Open your mind, heart & hands. The emsemble should bring a chemistry that MAY overcome technical difficulties.

Otherwise consider going back to solo recording - it's much less stressfull & doesn't require a committee to decide what beer to buy.

Cheers
rayC
 
rayc said:
Hi,
If the bassist won't come back & record then YOU record BUT tell her that she'll have to come back & do her own takes or yours will stand.

With the BITS of drumming - do a take of the bits & play them in & out to the drummer. Ask her/him to consider recording some ODs in the same ilk or to record a whole new take &/or mix all three together etc.

Open your mind, heart & hands. The emsemble should bring a chemistry that MAY overcome technical difficulties.

Otherwise consider going back to solo recording - it's much less stressfull & doesn't require a committee to decide what beer to buy.

Cheers
rayC
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Good advice all around. All things being equal, I do sort of prefer recording solo. It tends to go a lot faster and with a lot fewer takes. The only thing I don't really care for is overdubbing my own backup vocals... I'm so in tune to the sound of my voice that it freaks me out to hear two of me. ;)

The only bad thing about recording solo is that it's hard to play 4 or 5 instruments live by yourself. Yes, you can bring in a backup band, but I don't particularly want to go in the "singer and the band" route, or even in the "solo project" direction. I want a group in which everyone has a voice, which is why I just need to light a fire under these folks' behinds.

Turns out our rhythm guitarist may be moving back, but there's no way in heck I'm gonna let him on the recording, even if we decide to let him back in the band... lol... He'll be lucky if I put him in the credits... :cool:
 
I've been scanning through this thread again, and a question comes to mind - during the inital tracking was the whole band playing together? Or are you doing this track by track?
 
MadAudio said:
I've been scanning through this thread again, and a question comes to mind - during the inital tracking was the whole band playing together? Or are you doing this track by track?
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Track by track. I really wish we could do it as the whole band, at least as a scratch track to build upon. Unfortunately, I'm stuck with a stock soundcard with 2 channels of input. I have trouble recording DRUMS, let alone the whole band.
 
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