Recording distorted guitars...

[pikingrin]

My forum search thing keeps giving me "page not found" crap instead of related threads, so I hope you guys can help out a bit here...

I've been doing a lot more recording lately of music involving electric guitars instead of acoustic. I've been having "issues" getting decent distorted/overdriven sounds out of my equipment. As stated previously, I usually write and record everything using my acoustic guitars, so this is kind of new turf for me. I have done some recording with a POD XT, but have really started being able to get some really awesome tones out of my Blues Jr. and my ES-135, which I would love to lay down some tracks with.

I have always heard the theory that "less is more" when it comes to using any sort of overdrive when recording, as in you shouldn't ever use the same gain settings on the amp (and/or pedals) that you would in a live situation. Anyone have any say on this?

Also, just messing around with different gain settings on the guitar's signal chain, it's kind of hard to find a healthy middle ground between the tone I want and the way it sounds when recorded.

My guitar's signal chain is this: ES-135 (or SG if I'm feeling frisky) -> DOD FX50 Overdrive -> Big Muff Pi (USA) -> Blues Jr... I very rarely use both pedals at the same time, but it sounds awesome when they are both on.

My mic signal chain is (Rode NT1-A/Audix i5/Marshall V69 ME/Marshall 990) -> Presonus Eureka -> Tascam FW-1804 interface. I have been toying with mic placements and combinations (along with preamp settings) for about the last 2 weeks and have yet to find a sound that I am happy with.

Does anyone have some quick tips on things to try in regards to recording higher gain parts? Or maybe some links to some previous threads (since my internet is being a tard)?

Any info is greatly appreciated!! (Sorry for the long post, just trying to provide as much info about what's in use so you have an idea of what I'm working with...)

 

[daav]

Your chain looks great, sot he source is probabaly pretty good. When recording, you want lots less disortion than when listening in the room, experiment to taste there. Also, distoted guitar sitting ina mix has different cxharacteristics than guitar by itself, you often have to learn to adjust to the mix instead of getting the most out of your solo'd track.

do a search for "slipperman", You will not find a better guide, but plan on taking some time to read and listen to his stuff.

Daav

 

[legionserial]

Definitely use less gain than you need. Double or quadruple tracking will give you the crunch you might be after. Basically I tend to pull the gain down as far as I can without screwing up my ability to play. Usually about 6-7/10, but then it depends on the amp.

Don't do it at the expense of the tone you are looking for though. Basically one of the ways I guage it is if I brush the strings lightly, they should sound pretty much clean, rather than over-saturated like you would get if you pull the gain up to max.

One of the things I have noticed, despite recording mostly thrash metal, I tend to notice that when I have the gain set as I want it, the tone seems to have more of a 'classic rock' type feel (i guess) to it moreso than an ultra scooped mega saturated tone. If I quad track this, as I said before, I get the crunch I'm looking for, plus the punch and definition without all the noise and fizziness. Thats a good way to guage it I guess, turn the gain down just till the fizz goes away. I can't really word it any better way I'm afraid.

Also make sure to keep those mids up. don't do the death mid scoop thing that a lot of guitarists (including me in the past) like so much when playing alone. It doesn't work in the mix. Guitar is a primarily midrange instrument, so it won't cut through.

You probably know all this anyway, so sorry if I seem patronising in some way. It isn't intended.

You said you were happy with the tone you are getting, so what is it you aren't liking about it when it's recorded?

 

[ikijapan]

One of the things I have noticed, despite recording mostly thrash metal, I tend to notice that when I have the gain set as I want it, the tone seems to have more of a 'classic rock' type feel (i guess) to it moreso than an ultra scooped mega saturated tone. If I quad track this, as I said before, I get the crunch I'm looking for, plus the punch and definition without all the noise and fizziness. Thats a good way to guage it I guess, turn the gain down just till the fizz goes away. I can't really word it any better way I'm afraid.

I've been experimenting with this as well, and when playing out with the band or such, I definitely want the distortion high. But do you really think bands like metallica or slayer recorded with a classic rock amount of distortion?? It just doesn't make sense...and it doesn't sound like that. How much should someone turn the gain down if they want ultra gain sounding guitar?

 

[legionserial]

I've been experimenting with this as well, and when playing out with the band or such, I definitely want the distortion high. But do you really think bands like metallica or slayer recorded with a classic rock amount of distortion?? It just doesn't make sense...and it doesn't sound like that. How much should someone turn the gain down if they want ultra gain sounding guitar?

It's probably a personal thing. And there's definitely more distortion than 'classic rock' for me. I kinda wish I hadn't said 'classic rock' now. Stupid way to put it really. I think it's by comparison to the ultra scooped stupidly high gain fizzfest thing that I used to spend ages trying to record before realising it didn't work and it sounded shit.

Perhaps 'bright and crunchy vs dull and fizzy' sums it up better.

 

[ikijapan]

I kinda wish I hadn't said 'classic rock' now. Stupid way to put it really.

Well, but I think you're on to something. I mean, when people say you shouldn't record with as much gain as you want, I wish they would be much more specific, because I'm still kind of confused on how experienced people approach it. On a song I recorded a few weeks ago, the guy likes his distortion pretty heavy, like Alice in Chains heavy...not Metallica or anything. So I backed it off to about a heavy classic rock setting, and it turned out real good. But I still am not sure how much to back it off, if you want a REALLY heavy guitar sound, like death metal heavy, or a little less than death metal. Slayer or something like that.

And I think there is definitely something to what you said about the guitar reacting differently when you have the lesser gain. Because I'm pretty sure when I lower the gain, the sustain or something about the way the amp reacts changes, and it can make it harder to play exactly the same as when I just play it out with the desired gain sound.

 

[pikingrin]

You said you were happy with the tone you are getting, so what is it you aren't liking about it when it's recorded?

I am extremely happy with the tone I am getting through the amp (without recording), but when I record it something changes somewhere in the signal path into the computer (I'm assuming). The amount of distortion that sounds great when it's not being mic'd makes it sound extremely muddy in the mix.

I have tried disabling the compressor and EQ on the Eureka, have tried using the preamps on my interface, and have tried TONS of different mic placements, and I can't get rid of the "mud" without sacrificing the tone I want. If the mud goes away, however, it sounds thin. I am going to keep trying to mess with the EQ on the amp though, right now I think my bass is about 11:00, the mid is around 2:00-3:00, and the treble is right at 12:00 on the dials. I will have to try to track it a couple of times and see if that helps out at all. In all likeliness it will be the answer to my question... Sounds logical anyway.

Thank you for all the input so far!

 

[caseycook]

FWIW, I also use way less gain when recording than I do live. The one poster wasn't off base when he said a classic rock sound. I'll have a super clean, barely crunchy early AC/DC Angus sound to the ears, but on the track it sounds much punchier and 'good' distorted without sounding thin or tinny. Especially true for rhythm tracks. I'll dirty it up for leads to get a little more sustain and not be as likely to twank a note.

I've probably recorded 25-30 songs at home with my current setup over the last few years, and it took a long time to get to a recorded guitar sound I was even marginally happy with, and I love my live sound. A little compression here and there can help pop a track out in the mix, and I also tend to double up tracks with some variety in EQ, mic placement, amp settings, guitar choice, anything I can do to get that magic blend.

I use an SM57, Yamaha board, and usually a 50w Vox Valvetronics amp. The amp is nice as it had some pretty decent modelling and built in fx, but it also has a wattage selector so I can put it on say 1 or 15 watts and open it up so it can breathe but not be unbearably loud in a home setting.

If you're interested, here's one from a couple of weeks ago-

http://www.zshare.net/audio/radio_show-mp3-c2g.html

I like the sound of the short lead around 1:02. The actual solo later in the song was run through a wah filter to make it stick out. The rhythm guitars are a combination of strat and les paul, not as happy with them but what can you do.

 

[legionserial]

bass is about 11:00, the mid is around 2:00-3:00, and the treble is right at 12:00 on the dials.

Definitely turn your mids up. That'll help a lot.

 

[legionserial]

Definitely turn your mids up. That'll help a lot.

Oh wait. Ignore me. I thought you meant 2-3, rather than 2:00-3:00

 

[pikingrin]

Casey, not a bad sounding tune, but I am going for a little bit more of a bite than that on the song I am currently working on. I guess that's where my issue is. Trying to get a good recorded sound using my big muff is a pain in my butt. No matter what I do with the tone knob in specific, it just doesn't tend to give me the sound I want.

I'm just trying to get the best sound I can without having to resort to piling on exorbitant amounts (I like that word... ) of EQ and compression after tracking.

Legionserial, yeah, the mids are up there... Seems a little high for some of the parts that I wanted done different, but so far that seems to help out a little so I'm rolling with it.

Tonight I'll have more time to do some trials with using multiple tracks, I'll let you guys know how it goes. Thanks a lot for the responses!!

 

[antichef]

At the risk of reprimand from a large contingency on the board here, I'll say I think you should try an SM-57 microphone - I didn't see that in your list. I don't have a blues junior, but I do have a bunch of small-ish tube amps, and the 57 works well on them.

Based on the little I know, your equipment looks fine -- I'd probably start working with the guitar straight into the amp, circumventing the pedals, and when I got a good sound that way, put the pedals in one at a time (if you need to ).

 

[pikingrin]

At the risk of reprimand from a large contingency on the board here, I'll say I think you should try an SM-57 microphone - I didn't see that in your list. I don't have a blues junior, but I do have a bunch of small-ish tube amps, and the 57 works well on them.

I would, but I have already spent more than my renter's insurance will cover on my studio gear, and I'm also getting married in September...

When I went to my local music shop (a.k.a. guitar center), I went to buy an SM-57 (which I have had experience with in another studio, although it wasn't me recording anything). They were out, but offered me the audix, so I took the bait. I must say though that the audix, to my ears, sounds better than the 57 did. But there is no need to argue over which mic is better, as it's all relative. I'll have my clip ready to post tomorrow evening so you can hear what I've done, which isn't much but it's a step up from where I was when I started...