Recording Bluegrass Band-Need Help

B

blinddogblues

New member
I am recording a Bluegrass band, first time ever, and I need some help with mic selection. Here is my mic collection:

(1) Audio Technica AT-4033 Large Diaphragm Condensor Mic
(1) Studio Projects C-1 Large Diaphragm Condensor Mic
(2) Marshall V-67G Large Diaphragm Condensor Mics
(2) AKG C-1000 Small Diaphragm Condensor Mics
(2) Octava MC-012 Small Diaphragm Condensor Mics
(2) Marshall 603 Small Diaphragm Condensor Mics
(5) Shure SM-57 Dynamic Instrument Mics
(1) Shure SM-58 Dynamic Vocal Mic
(1) Shure Beta 52 Bass Mic

The band has 2 guitars, acoustic ofcourse, a mandolin, a bango, and a stand up bass. I like the Octava's on the guitars, and I assume the beta 52 on the stand up bass, my big question is the mandolin and the banjo. Any suggestions? Thanks.
 
Definately the SM-57 on the banjo. I'd put the 4033 out about 12-16" in front of the bass looking at the top of the treble side F hole. And one of the 603's on the mandolin.
 
Of the mics on your list I’ve used the C1, C1000, MC-012, and the SM57. But instead of telling you which mic to use where, I’m going to first suggest that you decide for yourself. First, try everything on everything. No, I’m not kidding (well, maybe just a little;) ). Set up a mic and have each musician play a 10 second test “ditty”, plug in another mic and repeat. This will take a little extra time, but what better way to get to know your mics and thus turn out a great recording of this strange music called bluegrass. When you play back the “dittys”, you can even let the band help you decide by telling you what they like best. After all, they know what their instruments are supposed to sound like.

Other than that, here are some things to think about (my own opinions, and of course YMMV):

The MC-012 that I used was way to boomy for dreadnought (bluegrass style) guitars. The C1000 worked better for me, but try the SM57, the 4033, and by all means the 603. Try these on the bass as well.

I’ve never tried the MC-012 on mandolin or banjo, but one of my buddies who happens to be a great mandolin player swears by his. Maybe having the extra bottom keeps it from being too shrill. The same thing may apply to banjo – experiment! (every mic you have should have a shot here, if you have time to try it)

The C1 is probably best used on male vocals, but also try the V67-G, 4033, SM58 and the SM57 on male and female.

Whew! Well I said to try everything on everything didn't I?:D

Do me a favor and let me know how it turns out.

Flatpicker
 
I know you said to choose from you existing collection(and it is a nice collection), but I heard a bluegrass recording my buddy did w/ a ribbon mic(Royer?) and it was so sweet and woody.
 
Lets start with the banjo. Keep the C1 away from it. For some reason the C1000 works well so I'd go with that or the 57 with the most consisitant sound coming from aiming at the resonator at the neck joint, low side.

Does the mandolin have F holes? Either way they record well with most anything. LD's will need a sweet spot and 012's don't care.

Guitars will be the hardest, but I'd try an 012 and the 4033 with the 52 on bass.
 
I've had great sound from recording a banjo with a C1, playing about 15-18" away from the center of the head. I've also found the C1 is great with the Regal resonator. Other than that, I think the C1 is too colorful/shiney for other instruments such as acoustic guitar, and the B3 comes in nice for that.

I like Flatpicker's advice, though...try it all yourself. It all sounds unique to each instrument/recording room. C1 could sound not-so-good with the banjo in your room.

Bodhisan
 
Last bluegrass group I had in here, I used the MXL 603s on everything except the bass and the vocals. Guitar, mandolin, banjo, and dobro were miked with the 603s. I use the ECM8000 omni on bass, placed parallel to the body of the bass with the top of the mic even with where the neck joins the body, and in pretty close. Worked very well.

With your collection, I'd probably use the MC012 on the banjo and mandolin, and the 603s on the guitars. I used the V77 on vocals, but I'd experiment with your mics to find the best mic for each singer.
 
Well, since yer posting this, i can only assume you've never recorded a bluegrass session before...one question i have is, is this for fun or profit?in short is this a booked session with a band you are not 'friends'with or is it a 'buddies' thing? the reason i ask, is someone earlier mentioned trying everything...now some people who would book a studio would be tolerant of this and might not mind paying for it...others would not...so,if by posting here you are wanting a solution so your session can run quickly and professionally, then heres what i got....having a bluegrass band in my place all the time helps a bit as does micing a lot of banjos....if they want to all play all at once, as most true bluegrass bands do,then you'll want more isolation than the large diaphrams can afford........i'm with harvey on the 603's and the 012's on most everything...i would add a 57 on the banjo, up the neck at around the 6th fret...if they want to 'track' everthing then your solution gets simpler....or if you have great isolation...for the guitars, pick a large diaphram that has a bump in the low mids and put it out in front about 12" aimed kinda at the soundhole but off axis to taste...each guitar then gets one of the 603's over the shoulder and pointing down at the upper bout of the guitar...check for phase and eq a bit but only 'cut'eq..dont try to bring anything 'up' as it will sit better later....try the 4033 in front of the banjo....some banjos would sound good with this mic ,others sadly would not...keep the c-1 and the c-1000's as far away from the banjo as you can throw it....i use an adk51 and a 57 all the time...its a newer deering banjo ,a very high-end one but it is THE hardest instrument in the world to mix....mando is a teeny guitar...a small diaphram in a 'sweet spot' will do he trick...if you're tracking put it in an isolation room and mic the room too...as well as close mic.....the doghouse(upright) needs a c-1000 in the upper bout sideways like harvey described and a 57 at the bridge hopefully through a mic pre of some sort....an avalon 747 or some kind of colorfull neve clone would be good...check for phase...vocals are to taste....probably the marshalls v-67's or whatever sounds good on them....good luck...remember, most really traditional bluegrass bands are perfectly happy to gather around one big mic in omni and do their thing.........so maybe just a group of mics at different levels set in a semi circle with a "hot" solo mic set so they can move in on it is the ticket......hell its bluegrass.......
 
blinddogblues,
My first choice from your list would have been trying the Octava MC-012's and Marshall MXL 603's on everything (except vocals) first.

So how was your bluegrass recording session, and what mic's did you end up using on what?
 
If there aren't going to be any fixes in the mixes, don't forget your room mics...
It's really important when recording a bluegrass band...seems to homogenize things nicely...
Or a single ribbon in the middle of the circle, if that's the configuration...
LOL!

Oh, and a SM57 is a very nice mando mic, placed just off the lower F-hole....


Bruce
www.bruceharvie.com
 
cavedog101 said:
....i use an adk51 and a 57 all the time...its a newer deering banjo ,a very high-end one but it is THE hardest instrument in the world to mix....
Click to expand...
Hi, Cavedog. What else have you used the ADK51 on and how do you like it? I've been thinking about getting one of these. I keep hearing they sound great on lots of stuff.
 
Hiya mr. flatpicker....i use it on most everything...its good with acoustic guitar, mandolin, banjo, overheads for drums, i even use as a second vocal mic for harmonies...it kinda blends nice behind a good front mic...it works well with preamps...theres no harsh edges to it...all in all for the price of a 57(a little more) its way better on everything than a 57...of course i do use 57's...lots of em there is a basic mic and it is the shure sm-57...over the last year ADK has had a 'special' they've run with certain dealers...you got an a-51 type V and a cm-1 small condenser for $199...i bought two sets...they're 4 numbers apart and match well for stereo...i use the small condensers on acoustic guitars, and overheads mostly...i have an X-Y array bracket and they sound fine in this positon.....i would recomend them...they sound a bit more 'solid' than the marshall mics but then the cost a bit more...like 30 bucks....theyre not neumanns but for a nice set of mics to build a locker with that you can trust to do a good job they are excellent.........peace...check the web site theres 4 (i think) different a-51 models....
 
Thanks for the info. I really have my sights set on an A51tl milti-pattern, although I’m may pick up an A51 type 3, 4, or 5 on eBay before I get the ‘tl. I’m glad you mentioned the cm-1. I was wondering about that one too. You’re the first one I’ve heard from who’s actually used one (other than the folks a ADK). So when you say “more solid than the Marshall mics” (I assume you mean a 603s), do you mean thicker, more lows, less highs or something like that?

Also, what do you use for the lead vocals?
 
blinddogblues said:
my big question is the mandolin and the banjo. Any suggestions? Thanks.
Click to expand...

I tried a 603 on mandolin a while back, and I think I've found what that mic was put on this earth for. :D Good match to say the least. Just do it.

I'd probably go with one of the mc012's on banjo. Switch it out for a 57 if it sounds too strident.

On the bass, I've had good luck using a two-mic setup with a LDC right on the F hole -- you might also try the beta52 there to get the really low-end "woof," -- and an mc012 about a few inches above where the neck joins the body; there's a sweet spot around there where you can get some great definition (as well as some slap if you're not careful). Just tell the player not to move around too much or breathe too hard, because that will get picked up there, too. :D

Blending those two tracks together, to me, is a lot like blending a DI signal with a mic'ed amp on electric bass. The right combination will give you a nice balance between the lows, mids and highs. Likening the f-hole mic with a di (mostly the really low end stuff), and the higher mic to a mic'ed track (more midrange and highs).
 
I just recorded some impormptu bluegrass jams - I litterally had 5 minutes to throw up some mics and run the cables. I only had 3 mics up by the time the musicians walked in.

I used 2 C-1's, actually, set up in a wide stereo x/y aimed at the center of the half circle of musicians. I stuck a ECM8000 on the bass pointed at the high f-hole maybe a foot out. The c-1's sounded AMAZING for the fact that I just threw them up, but the ECM8000 track is pretty useless for anything except adding a little low end.

My instinct was close but not quite on. Next time I'll try it by the neck joint.

Anyway, those 2 C-1's did a much better job than I was expecting. That might be because they were excellent musicians or just dumb luck, but you might try putting those V67's up as room mics.

I jam on bluegrass all the time where I live/work. I almost can't imagine recording it any other way than sitting in a circle. :)

Good thread!

Take care,
Chris
 
For the last bluegrass group I recorded, I had the ECM8000 pointed up at the ceiling, parallel to the bass body, and the top of the mic roughly even with the neck joint. I moved in as close as I could get it, without it actually touching the bass, or interfering with the bass player's hands. The bass player's solo on EMD came out sounding great.
 
Bodhisan said:
I've had great sound from recording a banjo with a C1, playing about 15-18" away from the center of the head. I've also found the C1 is great with the Regal resonator. Other than that, I think the C1 is too colorful/shiney for other instruments such as acoustic guitar, and the B3 comes in nice for that.


Bodhisan
Click to expand...

I don't know, I've got four banjos, 2 resonator and 2 open back and all sound distant and flat with the C-1's.......go figure. All sound great with an 012 and one of the resonators sounds good with a C1000.
 
I'm working on a bluegrass project now and will tell you my favorites. The banjo player ( a terrific musician) gets a great sound from an AKG C3000. He has played around with placement for hours and it shows. When we play live in the room, he is micing about 1 foot out in front of his right hand. I bet the C1 would work as well, IF the banjo player gets good tone without much pick nouise. Otherwise, I would bet the C1 would get a lot of the mechanical noise of the pick on the string.

For mandolin, I'm using a Shure KSM44, with the steep bass roll off, 1 foot out in front of the bridge. Most F5 or A5 type mandolins would not sound good here, but the KSM44 is so natural sounding and ythe mandolin so woody, this combination works great. Most folks seem to use small diaphram condersers on mandolins, about 45 degrees off axis, pointed at wher the neck and body meet. I have had good results there using KM84 and Royer R121s as well.

The guitar seems to depend on the instrument more than anything else. A Martin D28 or D35 tends to be very boomy in the soundhole region, so stay away from there. However the right D18 is not nearly so. On a friends who I borrow once in a while, the KM84 just a little left of the soundhole pointed at the middle of the soundhole about 16" out works very well. Go figure... On a Gibson Advanced Jumbo reissue (rosewood), I use the KSM44 pointed at the 12th fret with the sharper bass roll off.

For fiddles, nothing beats a ribbon mic, but the fiddle should be isolated or recorded later in my opinion. If I can't isloate it, I use a Sank modified Beyer M160 that is cardiod only. My favorite is the Royer R121. On the right fiddle and a good player, I've had luck with Km84, KM184, SM57 and others.
 
Wow! I just remembered I had started this thread and came to see if I had any responses. There are some great ideas and suggestions here and I appreciate all the help.
To answer a few of the questions that were raised, I am recording this band for free, even though I don't know these guys (I met one of them at the SPBGMA convention in Nashville). I just want to see if I can do a good job on Bluegrass, I've never recorded it before, but being here in Louisville, I figured I could get alot of work if I could do a good job of it, so I offered a freebie to get started.
The recording will not start for at least 2-3 weeks, so I have time to prepare. I will make a summary of these suggestions and experiment with these ideas as the starting point. Thanks again and please add anything else if you feel like it!
 
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