Recording better vocals

  • Thread starter Thread starter PersonalJesus
  • Start date Start date
Is the difference between a mic pre built into this Firewire 410 like night and day against a nice $500-$1000 mic pre? I have heard that the choice of mic is more important than choice of mic pre.

I will step up into better gear as I feel my career in music moving forward. Ive already invested about $4500 in the gear I have now, that incudes the computer I built, monitors, stands, the 414, the Firewire 410, cabling and my Nord Lead 3 synth. Until I am putting out a lot more music I just cant spend THAT much more. Usually I put down my arrangement and get so discouraged because I cant get a tight vocal sound that I never finish the vox. So, in 6 months to a year I may step up to a $1000+ mic. Until then I think Im going to buy the Envoice first, try the 414 through it, then possibly buy the SM7B and A B the two mics. Sell the one I dont like as much and live with that until I feel confident in buying pro gear.

Thanks!
 
Anyone know of a MP3 type of site where I can upload clips for people to hear? Preferably free and easy to use. Thanks
 
Rev, thanks for the kind words.
Do realize there was no "dissing" going on.

Boy, if I HAD to use only one microphone without extensive testing (as is my wont), it would have been the EV RE20 (or PL20). Reputed to sound excellent on most any singer, awesome on some.

A clever way to maximize your Shure SM57 would be to get a good parametric equalizer.

By using good mic placement during tracking, then tweaking via the equalizer during mixing you'd have a high quality vocal recording.

This is assuming you have a good mic pre
that works well with it, as previously suggested.

I tried the new Joe Meek pre at NAMM and on that limited trial, thought it sounded comparable to the Grace series. Those boxes IIRC will start around $200 and they include a compression/EQ section too.

How good does your "room" sound?
Condensers will pick up a lot of ambient tone.

Chris
 
Im recording in a 8' x 10' x 12' bedroom with carpeted floors. I use the 414 on a cardioid polar pattern. Im working on figuring out how I can link an mp3 so you can hear, but that wont probably happen till tomorrow. If anyone uses AIM you can IM me @ DMCOMATOSE if your interested in chatting and I can send files via AIM. Thanks for all the help.
 
PersonalJesus said:
Is the difference between a mic pre built into this Firewire 410 like night and day against a nice $500-$1000 mic pre? I have heard that the choice of mic is more important than choice of mic pre.
Click to expand...

I don't directly know as I have no personal experience with the 410. But until you get to something like the Apogee Mini-Me livel, any box with the pres built into aren't going to be "stellar" ... good maybe ... but not stellar. I do realize that this is a general statement and apolgize in advance to those folks who have Aardvark pre/soundcards. Just my opinion.

One problem with your mic pre issue, even if you were to get the Mindprint and use it in analog mode (without the digital out option), you will still go through the electronics of the 410 for analog/digital conversion, even in "line in" mode on the xlr input. So you will not be able to factor out the 410 with another mic pre ... just an FYI.

PersonalJesus said:
I will step up into better gear as I feel my career in music moving forward. Ive already invested about $4500 ... Usually I put down my arrangement and get so discouraged because I cant get a tight vocal sound ... Until then I think Im going to buy the Envoice first, try the 414 through it, then possibly buy the SM7B and A B the two mics. Sell the one I dont like as much and live with that until I feel confident in buying pro gear.
Click to expand...

Your plan sounds like a good one. Don't let me push you harder than you want to go. But be clear about my suggestion ... whatever you get, get the best you can afford. In that regard, the Mindprint pre looks like it will be a great asset to you.

As far as "tight" vocals, I can feel your pain. But I've found that treating your room will tighten things up a bit. Go to http://www.markertek.com/SearchProduct.asp?item=MF-3&off=17 and buy 2 or 3 of those 54" x 54" foam sheets.

Also, I made a $40 investment recently that really tightens things up in a less-than-ideal room... Aural-Xpanders. I got it at 8th street.com It's a few hard sheets of foam cut with grooves to slip on a mic stand. You put it on to control reflections coming to the mic. It will kill the bad reflections coming from the back and bottom (dead side... asssuming cardiod pattern) of the mic. So all you have to worry about is what's in front of the mic and behind the singer. Go here http://www.8thstreet.com/product.asp?ProductCode=21430&Category=Recording_Accessories I think you could do this for yourself if you were a DIYer, but I don't have the time or energy so I just ponied up the $40. Before these, I never realized how much unnecessary info my mics were picking up from behind and below. I also have wood flooring in my studio.
 
Rev E,

What your saying is that if I bought the Mindprint and went line out from the Mindprint to Line in on the Firewire 410 then I will be using the converters in the 410. I think the 410 uses Crystal converters, and I cant imagine that they could be much different than if I bought the digital output MOD for the Mindprint and used it for conversion. These same converters are used in my NAD stereo reciever and good DVD players. What gets lost in conversion?

BTW, I understand the idea of always getting the best you can. Thats how I am and the reason I went from mixing with headphones to buying Genelecs. I just think that right now I will be able to get close to what Im aiming at without breaking the piggy bank.

Thanks for the tip about the Auralex Expanders. Did you really find that they made a noticible difference?
 
If you're not taking something like the Lynx II or L22 converters or something like a standalone converter like Apogee, Benchmark, or even the Lucid GenX, I don't think things will be that different than the 410's conversion.

Going from headphones to Genelecs... that's a big and great step!

As far as the Aural-Xpanders, Yes, there is a very noticeable difference (tightening up) of the mic when I use it. My room has wood floors so it's live-ish. I have the walls treated with foam in key places so that things seemed tight. When I bought those and did A-B tests, I realized there was a lot of info coming in from the back and bottom of the mic that I didn't need or want. I wouldn't say night and day, but perhaps night and evening... definetly noticeable and definetly necessary to take the vocal tracks toward the next level.
 
Well, I went ahead and ordered the Mindprint Envoice MK II at muscians friend for $599. Its backorderd so I wont get it until the end of April, (which sucks). At least Muscian's Friend has a great return policy. Thanks for all the tips. I checked out those converters you mentioned. They look pretty darn nice. I'm gonna stick with what I have for now, the Firewire 410 I mean. But one day I may consider something from Apogee, probally not until I get a better mic though. Damn, Im excited. I hate waiting.......
 
chessparov said:
...I tried the new Joe Meek pre at NAMM and on that limited trial, thought it sounded comparable to the Grace series. Those boxes IIRC will start around $200 and they include a compression/EQ section too...

Chris
Click to expand...

Chris, which one? I don't expect the 3Q to have the same pre as the TwinQ and OneQ. Also curious, why did you compare it to a Grace (transformerless clean pre) instead of something with a transformer. Doesn't the TwinQ have an "Iron" setting?
 
The Meeks ALL have the same pre.

The entry version 3Q is more limited in features and doesn't
ahve the "iron" feature. (still an excellent value IMHO)
Also they had at least one Grace at the booth to do some
A/B's with so that's how that got involved.

Unfortunately, the Meek's with the iron feature didn't happen
to be connected when I stopped by. They were super-busy there.

With all due respect, when you're shooting for a certain tone reminicient of a certain artist, it primarily comes from the singer themselves not the gear.

As long as you already sound reasonably reminscient of whomever, you're already 95%+ there.

It ain't going to come out of pre's or A/D convertors...
(worthy gear purchase considerations nonetheless)

Chris
 
In case that comment was for me, I understand that your not going to sound like someone else unless you are them, but better gear will yield a different sound from you and help make ones recordings sound better. Thats why even though good singers have good voices, they record at professional studios.
 
If my comments seemed somewhat abrasive, please accept my humble apology.

It's kind of like how most smokers who quit, then become more "anti-cigarette" than those who never smoked!:)
When I first started this hobby, it seemed that if only I got the
"pro" stuff, then it would be easy to make "pro" demos. (heh heh)

Anyway...

When bringing up the topic of your last post with professional
AE's (like Harvey Gerst), they've always indicated that it's
"what's in front of the mic" and "who's behind it (AE)" for over
95% of the equation on getting professional level sound FWIW.

Although I'm regarded by singing peers to have a "good" voice,
it's a much more relaxed recording atmosphere in a home-type
environment IMHO.

Chris
 
Yeah, home recording is nice and comfortable. I guess someone had to bring up the "its the source not the equipment argument." All I was talking about was the recording end, not the original source because all the money and recording experience in the world isnt going to buy someone a better voice. Thanks for your input.
 
As an interesting adjunct to this, a guy who recorded at our studio a few years ago is setting up his own personal studio to record himself and his daughter. He wanted to know what mics would be good for vocals for him and his daughter.

I put up 5 pairs of mics, and recorded him and his daughter singing some stuff that had loud and soft passages. The mics ranged in price from under $70 to over $1,000.

From there, I'm going to make a CD-R for him with 10 tracks of him, and 10 tracks of her, all randomly placed, so he doesn't know which mic is which.

I told him that when he gets the disc, grade the mics on a piece of paper (from best to worst), and put the paper away for a week. Next week, listen to the CD again, and grade the mics, and put that new piece of paper away. Let another week go by, listen to the CD and again grade the mics.

Then I told him to look at all 3 sheets and see if there's one mic consistently near the top of all the lists; that's the mic for him. His daughter will do the same thing on her tracks. Then he can call me to find out which mics he and his daughter actually picked by listening only.

Here are the mics we used:

Beyer Soundstar MKII
Shure SM7
MXL V67G
MXL V69ME
MXL V77
MXL 990
Earthworks SR71 (he brought this one.)
Neumann TLM103
Coles 4038
AEA R84

All mics were recorded flat, no eq, no effects, no compression, with about 15dB of headroom. Before each recording, the mics being compared were roughly level matched (by reversing polarity and canceling out the signal) to produce comparable signal levels.

The mics were placed head to head (one above the other), and a small windscreen was used on most tests (except for the Beyer/Shure and Coles/AEA tests, which didn't need it).

Distance from the mics on the condenser tests was from about 6" to a foot away, the Beyer/Shure test was about 2 to 4" away from the mics, and the Coles/AEA test was from about 18" away.

I transfered all the tracks into the computer and tried to level match all the tracks so there were no level differences.

I just burned the CD tonight. Should be interesting.
 
Harvey Gerst said:
As an interesting adjunct to this, a guy who recorded at our studio a few years ago is setting up his own personal studio to record himself and his daughter. He wanted to know what mics would be good for vocals for him and his daughter.

I put up 5 pairs of mics, and recorded him and his daughter singing some stuff that had loud and soft passages. The mics ranged in price from under $70 to over $1,000.

From there, I'm going to make a CD-R for him with 10 tracks of him, and 10 tracks of her, all randomly placed, so he doesn't know which mic is which.

I told him that when he gets the disc, grade the mics on a piece of paper (from best to worst), and put the paper away for a week. Next week, listen to the CD again, and grade the mics, and put that new piece of paper away. Let another week go by, listen to the CD and again grade the mics.

Then I told him to look at all 3 sheets and see if there's one mic consistently near the top of all the lists; that's the mic for him. His daughter will do the same thing on her tracks. Then he can call me to find out which mics he and his daughter actually picked by listening only.

Here are the mics we used:

Beyer Soundstar MKII
Shure SM7
MXL V67G
MXL V69ME
MXL V77
MXL 990
Earthworks SR71 (he brought this one.)
Neumann TLM103
Coles 4038
AEA R84

All mics were recorded flat, no eq, no effects, no compression, with about 15dB of headroom. Before each recording, the mics being compared were roughly level matched (by reversing polarity and canceling out the signal) to produce comparable signal levels.

The mics were placed head to head (one above the other), and a small windscreen was used on most tests (except for the Beyer/Shure and Coles/AEA tests, which didn't need it).

Distance from the mics on the condenser tests was from about 6" to a foot away, the Beyer/Shure test was about 2 to 4" away from the mics, and the Coles/AEA test was from about 18" away.

I transfered all the tracks into the computer and tried to level match all the tracks so there were no level differences.

I just burned the CD tonight. Should be interesting.
Click to expand...




Forget about what the guy will like.



Which one did you find flattering (pun :) ) mr. gerst ?
 
JMarcomb said:
Forget about what the guy will like.

Which one did you find flattering (pun :) ) mr. gerst ?
Click to expand...
I was too busy editing and leveling all 20 files to listen closely. I intend to listen tomorrow.
 
But loads of $$$ DOES get you a better recorded vocal when you're recording Britney and the like!

Seriously, I don't put Justin into that camp.
He's clearly a talented pop vocalist.

One issue with most any vocalist (including me) is that they are not always prepared for
challenging technical issues in their material on a consistant basis. Most people have at least a pleasant voice, it's just the bad ones ("She Bangs") we remember most.

Therefore making efforts to improve things at the source have the biggest payoff, including spending money for vocal lessons, etc.

The point is that once a singer reaches a certain level of skill they can control their tone to target what "sound" they want better.

None of this takes away from the validity of your efforts to enhance things afterward.

Chris
 
yea these post are a great help. I agree it is really the mic. Get yourself a nt2 or something similar (very dear but hey) I read in another forum that there is an imatition of a rode nt2 does anyone know anything more bout this. With reference to the original post yea in most studios they have a seprate vocal both where it would all be set up. Its the same thing for everything unless they are after a total different sound to what a really good mic gives.

__________________

{{WWW.BENNEB.TK}}
 
<yea these post are a great help. I agree it is really the mic. Get yourself a nt2 or something similar (very dear but hey) I read in another forum that there is an imatition of a rode nt2 does anyone know anything more bout this. With reference to the original post yea in most studios they have a seprate vocal both where it would all be set up. Its the same thing for everything unless they are after a total different sound to what a really good mic gives.>

Thank you BenneB for your great observations! In regards to original post the NT2 and separate booth suggestions are especially helpfull.
 
No offense dude, but I think you are crazy to pay $600 for that preamp new and then wait for it for a month (or more, they are REAL slow about backorders) when you could instead hunt down a used Phoenix DRS-1 during the next couple of weeks, and be saving a few hundred more, and get one for about $950. That preamp will get you cloer to your goals, and its in the "PRO" territory, way deep into pro territory. I think if you are going to spend $600, get an RNP and an RNC instead. Much smarter move IMO. Otherwise, do the right thing and dig up that used DRS-1. Gearslutz buy/sell them used all the time over there at that site. You wont regret it. You MIGHT regret the Mindprint though.
My 2 cents, worth much more.
Peace!
Paul
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top