Recording better vocals

P

PersonalJesus

New member
Hello,

This is my first post on this forum. Dont flame me for using Justin Timberlake as an example because you have to admit his recordings sound excellent. I am trying to figure out how they get the type of vocal sound found on his record and many other mainstream "pop" records. What I imagine they are doing is having the singer close on the mic, with a lot of gain and then they use short reverbs and probally a lot of compression. I hear this sound on many "pro" records and I have not been able to reproduce it. It has a very present sound and the singers voice sounds like it has so much energy in it and sounds almost a little distorted in a way maybe harmonic distortion or could that be because of tube mic pres? I can hear a lot of exhales and inhales in these type of songs.

Using the 414 I have, I find that I have to boost 6k about 6db to bring out sibilance and presence in my recordings and usually cut 4db around 350, otherwise the 414 sounds dull. Could it be that I need some avalon mic pre or something to get the sound I am looking for (Ive never used anything but solid state). If anyone understands what I am talking about and would give me some ideas I would appreciate it.

I am currently using an AKG 414 B-ULS into an M-Audio Firewire 410 interface. Cubase SX 2 for recording and Genelec 1030a's for monitoring.

Thanks!
 
I know what you are talking about and the short answer is compression. I have gotten this effect by compressing during tracking AND during the mixdown.
 
Thanks for the idea. Im going to try that. I can only compress once the sound is recorded. I generally use a 4:1 ratio and reduce about 6 db of gain. What do you use?
 
hasbeen said:
I know what you are talking about and the short answer is compression. I have gotten this effect by compressing during tracking AND during the mixdown.
Click to expand...

It depends what compression you use. In vocals, the clichés are true: tube compression, like the avalon you mention, sounds much warmer and more present.
 
My first suggestion would be- although the 414 is a great versatile mic, it would not be my first choice for pop vocals, or possibly any vocals. It is really transparent, and rather bright. A modest midrange boost can help, but only if your EQ unit is top notch.
My best suggestion would would be to take an SM7B, engage the presence switch, and plug it into a kickass preamp, such as that Avalon, Great River, Pendulum, etc. Works for Michael Jackson, when he's not busy seducing children. And being a popaholic, I won't bust your balls for trying to sound like Justin Timberlake. If you can sing like that, I'm very proud of you.
I won't agree that his album (the one I've heard) sounds good, because I believe it is badly engineered, and badly produced, for the amount of money that was spent doing it. Unless you are Mariah Carey, I don't think you will get exciting pop vocals out of a 414. It's a great instrument mic.-Richie
P.S.- TubesRus- "Avalon is expensive" Duh! Do you think that the sound of top pop vocalists was achieved using cheap gear? I spent about $35,000 recording my first album, and that doesn't even scratch the surface of the cost of a major commercial release. This guy is asking how to swim with the big fish.
 
tubesrawsom said:
avalon is expensive
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a friend of me had is avalon preamp stolen out of his car, he was devestated 'bout that!

Other great gear (idd wtill expensive) are Tube Tech or millenia. Great stuff for warming up things.

When you talking about that equipment, you are talking 'bout hiring a studio, because few have those devices at home. although, I know some, but not me unfortunately :)
 
Thanks guys. Richard, the SM7B is a dynamic isnt it? I thought that recordings were generally done with Large-diaphram condensers. But actually I was watching a behind the scenes "Incubus in the recording studio" and the singer was using a mic that looked just like the SM7B. I never realized that dynamics could get that kind of sound. But riddle me this... Is the 414 going to sound better for vocals unless I have a $2000 mic pre to go with the SM7B or will that mic in general give me a better pop vocal sound with the gear I already have? BTW, the EQ I am using is the ones built into Cubase SX and much thanks for the help.
 
PersonalJesus said:
Thanks guys. Richard, the SM7B is a dynamic isnt it? I thought that recordings were generally done with Large-diaphram condensers.
Click to expand...

That's a common misunderstanding. you can do vocals with all kinds of mic: even The Peppers and Jamiroquai record vocals with a dynamic mic. try different ones and pick out the best: I recorded vocals with as well dynamics as small and large diaphragm condensors.

remember that every part in your chain counts, so also the EQ, compression, PRE and AD-DA convertor.
 
Nothing wrong with the suggestions above ... BUT for what YOU want (the Justin Timberlake et al pop sound), I doubt you'll get it with a dynamic, even an SM7 or Sennheiser 441. For that sound, the condenser is what you want. Think large diaphram condenser into a high quality mic pre. I recently got a Soundelux U195 and Pheonix mic preamp and I can attest to that being a great start in the "pro" vocal ballpark. In fact, in some weird way I get the "breath" sound naturally through the Phoenix pre/U195 combo without pushing the input very much that some have suggested above getting with compression. I've used an Avalon VT 737 before (with an AT 4050) and I recall getting that "air" or "breath" without compression, quite naturally. So I think finding a better "vocal" condenser and a better preamp will take you in the direction you want to go ... then there's the question of EQ AND in your case better analog/digital convertors ... but let's address the mic/mic pre first. FWIW, I hear about a lot of major label vocals being recorded with the Avalon VT 737, though there are a lot of other capable pres.

I would agree that great vocals can come from using dynamic mics. Particularly in the world of rock, rap and jazz, dyanamics and ribbons can be very useful. Often in the world of rock and rap the vocalists are at high volume AND in rap high-end fidelity isn't at all times absolutely key (dynamics take the whole "yelling at the mic" thing a bit better than condensers). Rap is "spoken" so the mid-range is most important. IMO, low-end and mid range is what dynamics do best. So yeah, I would say that it should not be uncommon to see rock or rap guys using dynamics or ribbons.

Jazz vocals is more of a intimate thing. The goal is capturing a natural, uncolored performance. Here too, dynamics and particularly ribbons have been and will continue to be used regularly. Though, condensers have been used here with regularity also ... mostly "neutralesque," "nonhyped" condensers with larger than life sound ... like Elam 251s and Neumann U47s (e.g. Frank Sinatra).

But for what you want ... go condenser.
 
Unless you have the actual track session notes to check it can be extremely difficult to detect whether a condenser, dynamic, or ribbon (part of the "dynamic" family BTW) on vocals-if you can.

Even on the same singer, for example, including Sinatra who recorded all of his vocals at Columbia on RCA ribbons and at Reprise on mostly various dynamic microphones.


It's easy to name plenty of hit records where you might be surprised a ribbon or dynamic was used in lieu of a condenser.
It's more a matter of which microphones offer something to enhance or camoflage the singer's voice.

Because my voice has a mellow tonality, the Shure Unidyne III's
thorugh a high end pre, are right up there with various $1000+
condensers (Manley/Telefunken USA/etc.)I've tried out for pop stuff. You need some pro "ears" to pick out the best one after a certain point like that IMHO.


In any case, the sound of the recorded vocal is mainly determined by the actual tone of the vocalist, not which specific microphone is used.

Some ribbons, such the AEA's, are well regarded for their top end by professional AE's like George Massenburg.

Ask Lynn Fuston, who organized the 3D "shoot-out" of many vocal microphones/pre's, if the MD441 compares well to high dollar LDC's sometime.:) (hint-he was surprised!)

Chris
 
Plenty of top pop vocals were recorded with dynamics, or ribbons, which are a form of dynamic. Both require lots of gain, hence the need for a kickass preamp. Lots of very clean gain with lots of headroom. I agree that there are many ways to get great pop vocal sound, and if your preamps are moderately priced, you will probably get better results from a condenser mic. If you want to go in that direction, there's a guy on another board interested in selling a Brauner voice valvet for $1800, which is a pretty good deal. I think that mic will produce the "modern" pop sound better than a classic U47/U67 type tube mic. For that sound, Lawson L47MP Mark II seems to be one of the best deals around. B.L.U.E. Kiwi is my choice, but that mic is picky about what kind of voices it likes. No doubt, top pop vocal tracks have been recorded with both dynamics and condensers, both FET and tube versions. It's a matter of matching the voice and the material to the mic. I think that Brauner would give you exactly what you want, and be useful for a bunch of other stuff. And just because the Avalon name has been thrown around, I have to say that I am not impressed with their tube pres, such as the 737- Pendulum rocks! On the other hand, I really like the Avalon solid state pres, such as M5 and AD2022-Richie
 
ChessP and Richie,

Please don't think that I was dissing your earlier suggestions. You guys regularly make fine contributions to this board and to this thread. I have some a few good dynamics, many of which are regularly mentioned around here. and I have access to some great ribbons from my mentor (44 and 77 DX, Fostex ribbon mic, etc). I was only suggesting that for the Justin Timberlake-type "pop" sound, a condenser into a clean(ish) preamp like the Avalon VT 737 is pretty much a sure way to where he wants to go.

But I will qualify that the condenser I'm talking about is in the U195 range and up, not the sub $1000 condensers. I love the 414, but there are better "vocal" mics...

Es.
 
Thanks, you guys have all been great and I really appreciate the ideas. To give you a little more info... I am mainly interested in doing pop music using sampled drums, synthesizers, and some electric guitar. My goal is to write and record my own "album." Due to everyone's comments I am seriously considering selling the 414 on ebay becuase all I need a mic for is recording vocals and I realize 414 is not the best choice. I'm not planning on recording any projects other than my own. I cant justify spending more than about $1000-$1200 for the mic and mic pre together at this time. (Buying the Genelec 1030a's really set me back.)

The idea of buying the SM7B sounded very appealing to me because that would only cost me about $325. Then I could spend $600 or so on a 1 channel mic pre. A friend of mine reccomended the following mic pre to me:

http://www.musicmarketing.ca/products/mp_envoice.html

Now I most definently know that a $1,200 condenser is going to sound great through a $2,000 mic pre and obviously much better than what I am considering, but do you think it would be wise to go the route I am contemplating at this time?

Additionally, I am concerned with buying a dynamic over a large-diaphram condenser mainly because I do enjoy the open top end of condersers. However, the only dynamics I have recorded with are SM57, SM58's and not ever through a Class A mic pre so I really havent personally experienced what they are capable of.

I am open to any other advice that you may have (please keep my budget in mind). And thanks a million for the advice you have given me already!
 
Personal,

What pres are you currently using? Are you using the pres on the 410? I don't know anything about that Mindprint box, so I'll leave it for someone with experience with it, but if I understand you, you want to:
1) sell the 414 and
2) buy an SM-7 and
3) buy either that Mindprint preamp or something similar?
Did I get that right?

So since you don't recording anyone else, you want a $1000ish solution for mic and preamp ... possibly with the a/d conversion already done?
 
That really wouldn't be a bad choice. The SM7 was used to track all the vocals on "Thriller", or so they say. Other top dynamics include Sennheiser MD441 and Electro-voice RE20. Any of those mics are applicable for pop vocals through a good pre, I've never used the Envoice, but it is respected by a lot of people I know, for what it's worth. The really hard part about vocal mics is that the mic that makes one person sound like a star makes another perfectly good singer sound really bad, and it's almost impossible to predict. I wish I could afford to make an offer on your 414, because I own one, and would really like a pair. It is a really good mic for almost anything except vocals, and even then, there are a small percentage of singers that sound really good through a 414. It takes well to EQ, and is one of the most versatile mid-priced studio mics around
You're just at a certain point in the process, where you can make "pretty good" vocal sound, but the "WOW" factor is lacking. Unfortunately, to get that sound requires a great preamp and whatever mic is right for your voice. That's the tough one. Some people sound great through an Oktava MK-319. They are lucky. Some people sound great through a Neumann M-149. They need a lot more money. Dynamics are cool, because the top of the line doesn't require you to sell your house, and you're just as likely to sound great through an SM7 as anything else.
 
BTW, the conversion is already done via the Firewire 410. Unless you have a better idea where I should sell this and buy something different???
 
Well, I know that the 414 doesnt sound good with my voice without a mic pre in my opinion. Richard, do you think the SM7B will be a good pair with the envoice?
 
I guess I added that 'conversion' part because the Mindprint box has that USB option which will get the audio into the computer digitally. But if you're comfortable with what you have now, there's no real reason to change it now, unless you really want to spend money.

As far as your plan as I understand it, you're trading a decent mic for another decent mic and a better preamp. It doesn't sound like a bad idea. But like Richie, I think if you're just recording yourself you want a mic that has the "wow" factor on your voice. Don't get me wrong, I know you have limits on your budget. But call me a snob, but I think you gotta get a condenser to go with that Mindprint pre. I really like my Soundelux U195, but I've also heard good things about the Audio Technica 4060. Perhaps something on the used market may be the ticket. But I really think you may want to 'find' the money to at least try something like a U195 with that Mindprint pre. I really think that you'll see/hear my point.

You're a prime candidate for having a "gold" channel or two. You only record yourself and (most) of what you're recording is your voice. Whatever that mic/pre may be, make sure you really step up "hard."
 
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