Recommendations for Upgrades (mic, pre-amp, compressor)?

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thornomad

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Hi everyone -

I am new here and wasn't sure where I should best post this question (there are a lot of categories!) so I will give this one a shot.

As a hobby, I record my own voice and guitar at home. Currently I have one SM57 and one SM58 with a single ART Tube MP and use a M-Audio Mobile Pre to input it into my Mac. I think this is considered a "budget" setup (wink).

I want to put some more time/money into my recordings (what can I say, I like it!) but wasn't sure where to start. I was considering getting another Tube MP (they are cheap) so I could record my guitar with two mics at the same time (and also so I could record voice/guitar at the same time when I was in a hurry). Then, I was also thinking that a new microphone might go a long way (like a SM7B or KSM27).

But this all got me thinking that maybe I should reconsider my setup from the ground up -- Christmas is coming, after all -- but I don't know where to begin. Part of me thinks maybe I could use a compressor, because one thing I am frustrated by is setting Mic volumes to handle both quiet and loud vocals without whispers and clipping. Another part of me thinks maybe I should ditch the Mobile Pre and get something more substantial.

Basically, I don't know where to begin. Tube MPs are $29 on Amazon so that's a safe bet for me, everything else is into the $100+ range and that gets me thinking.

Any opinions on where I could go from here? (Other than for voice and guitar lessons!!)

Thanks!
Damon

PS: I also would use a new microphone for spoken word records (podcasts).

PPS: If you are interested in hearing what I record (if that would help), you can check out damonjustisntfunny -dot- com (music category).
 
Hi everyone -

I am new here and wasn't sure where I should best post this question (there are a lot of categories!) so I will give this one a shot.

As a hobby, I record my own voice and guitar at home. Currently I have one SM57 and one SM58 with a single ART Tube MP and use a M-Audio Mobile Pre to input it into my Mac. I think this is considered a "budget" setup (wink).

I want to put some more time/money into my recordings (what can I say, I like it!) but wasn't sure where to start. I was considering getting another Tube MP (they are cheap) so I could record my guitar with two mics at the same time (and also so I could record voice/guitar at the same time when I was in a hurry). Then, I was also thinking that a new microphone might go a long way (like a SM7B or KSM27).

But this all got me thinking that maybe I should reconsider my setup from the ground up -- Christmas is coming, after all -- but I don't know where to begin. Part of me thinks maybe I could use a compressor, because one thing I am frustrated by is setting Mic volumes to handle both quiet and loud vocals without whispers and clipping. Another part of me thinks maybe I should ditch the Mobile Pre and get something more substantial.

Basically, I don't know where to begin. Tube MPs are $29 on Amazon so that's a safe bet for me, everything else is into the $100+ range and that gets me thinking.

Any opinions on where I could go from here? (Other than for voice and guitar lessons!!)

Thanks!
Damon

PS: I also would use a new microphone for spoken word records (podcasts).

PPS: If you are interested in hearing what I record (if that would help), you can check out damonjustisntfunny -dot- com (music category).

An SM7 would be pretty sweet. I use mine all the time, but your preamps are the weak spot. A dynamic mic isn't going to sound fantastic through an entry level preamp. I'd stay away from a $100 compressor...the cheapest compressor that's worth using is the RNC at about $200...I LOVE the Pro VLA at about $300, then there's the RNLA and DBX 160 that come it at $275 and $350 respectively. Unless you can afford one of the latter four mentioned, skip it.

What you might want to think about is upgrading your preamp. While the Tube MP is nothing to write home about, ART's MPA Gold preamp with a change of tubes is fantastic for the money. That'll run you around $300 used including a change of tubes. For about $475 there's the RNP as well. Both of those are two channel preamps so you could record guitar and vocals at the same time...you can upgrade to an SM7 later.

Frank
 
What you might want to think about is upgrading your preamp. While the Tube MP is nothing to write home about, ART's MPA Gold preamp with a change of tubes is fantastic for the money. That'll run you around $300 used including a change of tubes. For about $475 there's the RNP as well. Both of those are two channel preamps so you could record guitar and vocals at the same time...you can upgrade to an SM7 later.

Hi Frank - thanks for that insight. That's exactly the kind of thought I was looking for ... without it, I would probably run out and get a new microphone and have been stuck with possibly similar results. (As a newbie, you can imagine how impressed I was when I added my *first* pre-amp ... before, I was going straight into the mobile pre and thinking: there is a lot of hiss!)

I looked at sweetwater and they sell ART's MPA Gold for only $299 new ($263 at Amazon)! That looks like it would make a difference ... hmm, is good food for thought. Certainly is bigger than what I have (and in my eyes, bigger should be better).

Do you think my M-Audio Mobile Pre is holding me back ? Or is it less important ?

Thanks again!
 
Hi Frank - thanks for that insight. That's exactly the kind of thought I was looking for ... without it, I would probably run out and get a new microphone and have been stuck with possibly similar results. (As a newbie, you can imagine how impressed I was when I added my *first* pre-amp ... before, I was going straight into the mobile pre and thinking: there is a lot of hiss!)

I looked at sweetwater and they sell ART's MPA Gold for only $299 new ($263 at Amazon)! That looks like it would make a difference ... hmm, is good food for thought. Certainly is bigger than what I have (and in my eyes, bigger should be better).

While bigger isn't necessarily better, the MPA with some decent tubes in it will be a huge step up from the Tube MP.

Do you think my M-Audio Mobile Pre is holding me back ? Or is it less important ?

The converters aren't going to be stellar, but I'd get the preamp upgraded, then maybe get a decent mic (that SM7 would be great)...by then you'll realize that your room sucks, so you'll take care of that, then you can upgrade the converters. They'll do for now.

Frank
 
While bigger isn't necessarily better, the MPA with some decent tubes in it will be a huge step up from the Tube MP.

Do I need to consider new tubes if I buy the MPA new ? Or are "tubes" like an upgradeable feature that can be swapped out (improved) ?


...by then you'll realize that your room sucks, so you'll take care of that, then you can upgrade the converters. They'll do for now.

That made me laugh. When I was recording my audiobook, I used my PowerMac G5 -- it has an insane fan in it, but was the only option available to me. So I covered/wrapped it in seven different quilts. I'm not sure how good that was for the heat in the case, but kept it quiet. I guess the more you can hear through the mic ... well ... the more you can hear through the mic.
 
Do I need to consider new tubes if I buy the MPA new ? Or are "tubes" like an upgradeable feature that can be swapped out (improved) ?

You don't have to buy them right off the bat, but it's easier to do before you stick the MPA in a rack. You can swap 'em out anytime you want...it's as easy as taking the top cover off, popping out the old ones, popping in the new ones and putting the cover back on. It'll take five minutes.

That made me laugh. When I was recording my audiobook, I used my PowerMac G5 -- it has an insane fan in it, but was the only option available to me. So I covered/wrapped it in seven different quilts. I'm not sure how good that was for the heat in the case, but kept it quiet. I guess the more you can hear through the mic ... well ... the more you can hear through the mic.

Too true...the more experience you get, the more discerning your ear will become. Then you'll hear all the things that have been escaping your attention and it'll start to drive you nuts. That's when dropping big money on converters, monitors and room treatment will begin to seem very, very reasonable.

Frank
 
...best place to start with a pre is "clean"...forget about "toobs"...it's all hype...most people buy cheap tube preamps hoping to achieve a sound that is actually based more on "transformer" based designs than tubes...go with a pre that's a keeper...66dB and clean, accurate sound...DMP3 (or the RNP as mentioned above)...still gets props on the pro forum sites...you can always tweak in-the-box but the best preamps offer accurate reproduction...if you want tubes, start saving...a used UA 610 goes for about $800...anything less, with the exception of the Groove Tubes Brick ($300 used) is more "sizzle" than steak...a Shure SM57 (keep in mind that the SM7, which is the best "bang-for-the-buck mic you'll ever buy is essentially a "beefed up SM57") with a good clean pre like the DMP3 will give you better results than a cheap Chinese condenser into an inexpensive "toob" preamp...if you don't believe me, start doing a search on the pro sites (like Gearslutz) and save yourself the time and dollars...the only Art stuff that gets any props are the Pro VLA and VLA II comps...just some honest advice...;)


(***the SM7 like the SM57 and SM58 are all based on the original capsule design of the Shure Unidyne III)
 
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...best place to start with a pre is "clean"...forget about "toobs"...it's all hype [...] go with a pre that's a keeper...66dB and clean, accurate sound...DMP3 (or the RNP as mentioned above)...still gets props on the pro forum sites...

Heya - thanks for that info ... I might have to read into the difference between a "tube" pre and a "clean" pre ... I didn't realize there were different options, I guess. The M-Audio DMP3 is actually less expensive ($159.97) than the ART's MPA Gold ($263) ...

the only Art stuff that gets any props are the Pro VLA and VLA II comps...

Those look like they are both compressors (they mention amplifiers as well) ... are they used in tandem *with* a pre-amp or by themselves?


Too true...the more experience you get, the more discerning your ear will become. Then you'll hear all the things that have been escaping your attention and it'll start to drive you nuts. That's when dropping big money on converters, monitors and room treatment will begin to seem very, very reasonable.

Yea - I can see that happening. My biggest problem, is I spend so much time reading about all my options that no matter what I get I know that it wasn't the best choice.

Thanks again you guys.
 
...if you want tubes, start saving...a used UA 610 goes for about $800...anything less, with the exception of the Groove Tubes Brick ($300 used) is more "sizzle" than steak...

I agree for the most part, with the exception of the MPA. It is a great-sounding preamp, and it's not a "toob" design. It's an actual 300V design, not starved plate. Sure, a 610 would probably beat it in a shoot out, but not 100% of the time. It's three times as expensive too, and I'd say it's maybe 25% better.

The advice is sound though...I'd try to start off with a transformer-based preamp first, like the RNP or the DMP3.

Frank
 
The advice is sound though...I'd try to start off with a transformer-based preamp first, like the RNP or the DMP3.

Yea - I guess it maybe comes down to how much I want to spend then ... looks like the M-Audio DMP3 is the cheapest ($159) ... the ART's MPA Gold ($263) ... or the RNP Preamp (8380 = $475).

I saw a couple reviews of the DMP3 which gave it hands down superiority to Tube MPs ... sounded like it was coming from my arena ... maybe I will start with that, since it is cheapest ... and see where I go from there.

So, I guess my last thought on this is whether the DMP3 will take me far enough (hold its own) to allow for a new Mic or compressor in the future? ... or, will I find that if I want to do *another* upgrade, will I just be back getting a better preamp (trying to assess the investment aspect of this)?

Thanks

Thanks again.
 
...combine an inexpensive but clean and amply powerful mic pre (like the DMP3) with a decent quality entry-level compressor (FMR RNC, a used DBX 160 or an Art VLA) and an SM7B and you have a true "entry level pro setup"...what I mean by that is that you would actually have to spend quite a bit more money to see any real measureable improvement in your sound quality...of course the recorder's skill level is a big part of the equation, but those 3 items (which could be had for less than $700 used) linked into a modest DAW interface could produce very respectable recordings...

...another cheapo pre that is quite respectable is the Studio Projects VTB-1...just don't bother much with the "starved-tube" effect...the pre itself is surprisingly clean and offers 70dB of gain to really drive the SM7B...check out this thread where it was put up against a $2200 pre in a shootout:
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/high-end/296542-85-pre-2200-pre.html

...I'm gonna start another thread to request other suggestions in this price range that would produce "entry-level pro" results...;)
 
...combine an inexpensive but clean and amply powerful mic pre (like the DMP3) with a decent quality entry-level compressor (FMR RNC, a used DBX 160 or an Art VLA) and an SM7B and you have a true "entry level pro setup"...what I mean by that is that you would actually have to spend quite a bit more money to see any real measureable improvement in your sound quality...

Well, that's exactly sort of the road I am traveling down ... although, your next point probably is even more important (in my case):

of course the recorder's skill level is a big part of the equation

I would be interested in reading more on these options and will look for that new thread -- I know that, when it comes down to it, a lot of times it comes to personal preference when choosing from the final select few ... but, I feel better knowing I could go with a DMP3 now and add a compressor/mic later and still be working my way *up* in quality.

I just have a hard time making those final decisions! Am afraid I'll learn/read something the minute after and say *doh* - I should have gone with the other one!
 
...combine an inexpensive but clean and amply powerful mic pre (like the DMP3) with a decent quality entry-level compressor (FMR RNC, a used DBX 160 or an Art VLA) and an SM7B and you have a true "entry level pro setup"...what I mean by that is that you would actually have to spend quite a bit more money to see any real measureable improvement in your sound quality...of course the recorder's skill level is a big part of the equation, but those 3 items (which could be had for less than $700 used) linked into a modest DAW interface could produce very respectable recordings...

...another cheapo pre that is quite respectable is the Studio Projects VTB-1...just don't bother much with the "starved-tube" effect...the pre itself is surprisingly clean and offers 70dB of gain to really drive the SM7B...check out this thread where it was put up against a $2200 pre in a shootout:
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/high-end/296542-85-pre-2200-pre.html

...I'm gonna start another thread to request other suggestions in this price range that would produce "entry-level pro" results...;)

Hey Kidvybes, good info. I was looking at that post in GS earlier today and thought it was quite convincing. I liked how everyone voted for the VTB-1 until they found out what it was. I was going to ask around here what opinions might be on the VTB-1 then came across this thread, so thanks for sharing.

I'm also looking at getting the SM7B soon, have you had any experience with it and either the dmp3 or vtb-1? VTB-1's on eBay are cheap.

Sorry for hijacking, but this thread is what I was looking for.

Peace,
 
Hey Kidvybes, good info. I was looking at that post in GS earlier today and thought it was quite convincing. I liked how everyone voted for the VTB-1 until they found out what it was. I was going to ask around here what opinions might be on the VTB-1 then came across this thread, so thanks for sharing.

I'm also looking at getting the SM7B soon, have you had any experience with it and either the dmp3 or vtb-1? VTB-1's on eBay are cheap.

Sorry for hijacking, but this thread is what I was looking for.

Peace,

...these days it seems like the SM7B has earned a priority perch on my mic stand...I have been using it with all my pres, including my VTB-1...I have actually been selling off any of my pres that aren't powerful enough to drive it, just to show you how much I love this mic!...as far as the lesser expensive pres that I have, the VTB-1 has the best gain output...no problem getting good signal strength out of the SM7B, although I tend to ignore the "toob" circuit as I prefer to get cleaner signals into my DAW...a ridiculously inexpensive pre that delivers 72dB of gain is worth keeping...this thing can push ribbons as well as dynamics...OK, not the cleanest output money can buy, but a great interim pre until you can afford a Great River...

..now the DMP3 is the cleaner choice, but the gain is a bit lower so I find that I make up any necessary gain by tracking thru my RNC or other compressor...the DMP3 alone is just barely strong enough (unless you use digital gain in your DAW) when driving dynamics and ribbons...you can do it, but the extra 6dB of the VTB-1 is a bonus...both pres are great for the price...after that you're looking at the FMR RNP for quite abit more dollars...

...here's a link to the PMI site regarding driving dynamic mics (SM7, RE20, etc) with the VTB-1:
http://www.pmiaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=211
 
...now the DMP3 is the cleaner choice, but the gain is a bit lower so I find that I make up any necessary gain by tracking thru my RNC or other compressor...the DMP3 alone is just barely strong enough (unless you use digital gain in your DAW) when driving dynamics and ribbons...you can do it, but the extra 6dB of the VTB-1 is a bonus...both pres are great for the price...after that you're looking at the FMR RNP for quite abit more dollars...

...here's a link to the PMI site regarding driving dynamic mics (SM7, RE20, etc) with the VTB-1:
http://www.pmiaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=211

I agree with everything you have said regarding the DMP3. I think the DMP3/RNC combo will be very hard to beat, especially for acoustic guitar. But are you saying the DMP3, even with the high-gain 66db stage engaged, doesn't put out enough gain for dyncmic mics? I have not noticed that problem with my dynamics (including a Shure 545)--although dynamics are not what I generally use the DMP3 for.
 
I agree with everything you have said regarding the DMP3. I think the DMP3/RNC combo will be very hard to beat, especially for acoustic guitar. But are you saying the DMP3, even with the high-gain 66db stage engaged, doesn't put out enough gain for dyncmic mics? I have not noticed that problem with my dynamics (including a Shure 545)--although dynamics are not what I generally use the DMP3 for.

...the DMP3 will definately drive the RE20/SM7 style dynamics but only at the top end of it's gain structure where the quality of the signal is not at it's best...that's why I mentioned using the RNC to make up a little extra gain rather than topping out the DMP3...I find that pres with just a little extra gain (72-80dB) provide a touch more smoothness since you're not maxing out their gain potential when driving low output dynamic mics...but that may be more theoretic than actual...I do know that with my more expensive pres there is a bit more "mojo" at the higher gain levels, but that may not be desireable all the time...depends very much on the signal source (the singer) and what sonic "character" you are trying to capture (or create!)...it's all very subjective I guess...;)
 
Yeah, DMP3/RNC in this case. After that, since you've already got a SM57 & 58, I'd jump to an AT4033 for vocals and acou. The AT4033 doesn't pick up a lot of room (for a condenser) and won't need as much gain as the SM7. Or get a MXLV67 for voice and Shure SM81 for acou guitar. And buy it all used. All this stuff is on Craigslist weekly.
 
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