Originally posted by B.SABBATH
... but I was barely able to hear any cello until around 2:20.. I heard a few pops like @0:53.. there are others..
Thanks for the earballing. The pops are in the original 128kbps MP3 I used as the resource track for this cello added re-mix ... (there I'll blame it on 'them'). It was probably Trip bangin' on a glass with a butter knife while Pedullist egged her on ... can't trust these people ya know
. I'll address the volume issue later as that is a cumulative issue amongst the responses, and I'm still sorting this out.
The Ghost of FM
The backing vocals were nicely done too but perhaps they could have come in earlier in the track
I put the backing vocals in to demonstrate to Patrice that I have the ability to sing backup for her, and so she could hear how my vocal mixes with hers. I am strongly considering placing a backup vocal somewhere else in the song, somewhere earlier. My thinking was, that I would leave her with the impression of the vocal last, so she wouldn't forget my singing, the cello appears continuously ... so the vocals need to be a last impression, and that is also the position in the song where she has crafted a repetition of the hooks and they need to be supported with backup there, they only appear singly previous to that.
The Ghost of FM
You playing sounded flawless and in tune at all times
awwww, shucks ...
Groucho
... you probably did well to err on the side of underplaying, rather than overplaying. ... As a *demo* to be given to a singer, I think you did good, since no singer's gonna respond to anyone stepping on her vox even a little bit.
The most important part of your response as I weigh the volume issue is "... even a little bit ... "
Participant
They may be slightly overshadowing things right before 3:20... on the order
of about 1.5 db (jumping in front of the guitar...)
Yes, I intentionally mixed the cello really loud here, approaching the point of absurdity. That you caught this confirms that the cello should never exceed the volume of the guitar at any point, the cello is subservient to her vocal and her guitar at all times in the mix, and the mix should demonstrate that. I am going to experiment with panning the cello 1-4% to the left when there is only guitar and cello in the mix, just a touch can make a huge difference.
Toki987
... woody resonance of the cello ... could be a bit more prominent earlier on ... You got the badge show your authority.
Yeah, I'm thinking that of all the orchestral strings, cello somehow lends itself to samling best. The only samples I have a lot of trouble knowing they are samples are a small group of the highest quality cello samples. But a real cello section is even easier to tell. Here I pointed the hypercardiod pattern half on the bass side f-hole and half on the top, bridge side of the bass side f-hole, major wood. Your comments on the 'volume envelope' for the cello bus are in the equation ...
Lt. Bob
... it's way soft until about 2:45 or so ... You simply have to show some virtuosity that makes you stand out. Maybe you should consider doing a string version of one of her songs. But you have to show her a reason to part with money ...
As your ear is well developed to detect the bari-sax deep in the mix, like the cello may be here sometimes, you get a lot of weight in the 'cello bus volume envelope equation'. I am always in serious consideration of your concern that I need some flash in the demo, and I'm waiting for that opportunity to arise. At one of the breaks in this tune, I may add a little violin pizzazz. She has just re-constituted her band with some major personell changes, so I'm waiting to hear an example of the upcoming gigs they are recording and then making available as MP3. I might very well do a string version of one of her songs along the lines of what this group is doing
http://www.ericgorfain.com/thesectione.html . Yes, (drumming fingers), must get 'the money'
Sloop
I too think the cello was a little soft for the first couple of minutes
After our collaborative exchanges on vocal levels, this goes strongly into the 'cello bus volume envelope equation' ...
Volthause
... too quiet and subdued in some spots ...
I remember you are a frequency alalysis freak, (as I aspire to be), so you go strongly into the 'cello bus volume envelope equation' . Along with Toki's bass ear, Lt. Bob's Bari ear, there is a very strong case for bringing the cello up a lot in the first 2 minutes building.
MAC2
...have you tried switching the phase on either Patrice's track(s) or your cello track(s)?....also the harmony vocal sounded a bit harsh...maybe some cut in the mid or upper mids?.....I'd be interested to know what mic(s) you used to track the cello and what else may have been in the signal chain
I will experiment with phase switching in SONAR, as I am remixing with a 128kbps MP3, this might make a good difference, good tip, thanks.
I'll put an EQ on my harmony vox, that might allow me to maintain the volume level, but let her lead shine a bit more.
The mic for the cello is a Fender M1, hypercardiod condenser, lavalier type mic. It is 20 years old. It has it's own pre-amp power supply, but I'm running it on a Mackie 1202's phantom power. It is a limited edition mic and has an extremely flat 20-20 response. It does not take kindly to lots of SPL and overdrives very easily, but will catch the proverbial pin drop from distance, it's perfect for viola and well suited for cello and violin.
I have crafted a stiff 'plastic stick' that runs across the front of the cello and with bends at the ends ... attaches to, (just behind), the 'bouts' or the edges of the top on either side. The 'plastic stick' runs underneath the strings behind the bridge. Each end of the stick that clips over the tops of the edges of the cello front, (the bouts), has a bit of 'soundblok'. That keeps the cello from getting scratches and is sonically neutral. So it looks like a big smile on the cello, the bridge being the nose. Along this plastic stick are mounting points for the Fender M1, each mount can be rotated and slid in either direction on the stick a few centimeters. The hypercardiod pattern of the mic is placed halfway over the bass bar side f-hole, and halfway over the cello top on the bridge side of the bass bar f-hole. I'll post a pic of the rig one day.
I take a channel insert from the Mackie and run it into an Alesis Compressor which I probably don't need for the cello, but it's insurance as I then run into the +4db TRS of an Echo Mia Audiocard, and then of course the signal is recorded in SONAR.
Skids
You should check out "jump, little children."
Thanks for the listen, I'd love to add some strings to you and that woman's work someday, ya'lls mixes are my cup of tea. Thank you for pointing me to the 'example band', I'm always looking for the brethren ...
Powderfinger
is she pleased with it so far? has she heard it yet?
As she is appearing soon on the Austin City Limits Music Festival stage, and has just reconstituted her band with really major personell changes, she is doing good just to keep her head above water. She has directly emailed with me, and given me an address to send a CD. This is the fourth example of her music. I have one song with violin added, one song with viola added, and now two songs with cello added. This song may also get a smattering of viola and cello in the wide open break portions. That would be a fourth song with a full string arrangement, but I couldn't do that live, unless I programmed some of the instruments with MIDI, and that's a whole different kettle of fishies with her.
Sluiceyou went to the other extreme with the mix on this one.
Take your last one and this one, and split the level of your track right down the middle.
Thanks for making the extra effort to listen and sacrificing some of that precious sleep, I appreciate YOU ! Now I'm going to address the volume issue for all the responders, sort of a thinking out loud thing.
CELLO BUS VOLUME ENVELOPE EQUATION, (and other concerns) :
The track needs to start off where she will instantly hear the cello, with no doubt, so maybe the cello needs to appear with the guitar during the short intro. Then as her vocal appears drop to an accompaniement level that is a little louder than it currently is. At some point around 2:00, the cello needs to make more of an 'appearance'. This seems to be the fulcrum point consensus amongst the listeners, as if the volume envelope is a seesaw, the left side of the envelope needs to come up higher. The cello must never exceed the volume, metered or apparent of the resource mix. There probably needs to be some type of solo on one of my instruments in one of the breaks. The use of punchy eighth notes on the cello is a good thing, and as there is not drum, this would be a good thing to use a little more. There should be some pizzicatto somewhere, probably an arpeggiated figure. There should be an example of my backup vocal singing earlier in the piece, and an EQ should be slapped upon the backup vocals.
I have a much better viewpoint on the mix at this time, thanks to all of you for listening.
I think an important point for me to consider here is that all of you are my 'comrades' on the bbs, and some of you might be saying like ... 'fuk day beyowtch let pack rAwK !' ... and of course I appreciate that sentiment, but it must figure into the ephemeral 'cello bus volume envelope equation' ... it's been fun !
)
