DavidK
New member
Personally, I would disagree with that. 4 years of school is four years of school.
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Personally, I would disagree with that. 4 years of school is four years of school.
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
On the other side of that coin, experience is experience.Personally, I would disagree with that. 4 years of school is four years of school.
OK, maybe it's not "on the front line" experience, but when the bullets start flying, I'd rather have a soldier that's experienced boot camp, tactical training and live fire drills for a few years than some kid taken off the street with no relevant experience at all, even if the former's experience was all schooled.
Good stuff. I think this is just as important as the tech skills themselves.masteringhouse said:
It's funny; one recurring theme that always crops up in the school vs. self-taught threads around here is that people complain that they aren't handed lead engineer or producer jobs on a platter when they graduate from school, totally ignoring the fact that that doesn't happen in any other profession either. Plumbers, electricians, programmers, lawyers, even - especially - doctors all have to start at the bottom rung of the ladder when they get out of school.
G.
it also depends on where you're looking to work.
i ran across a nice kid in the past year who just got hired on at telarc. he was in a 4 year audio program in southern ohio...he quit after year 2 if i remember correctly and started working for a live sound company. he came into a job i was taking a split from and dealt with a difficult situation in top form. his audio skills were good...but what impressed me most was his people skills and work ethic. i'm betting the same thing impressed telarc while he was interning there. i'm also betting he didn't have a demo reel...and he sure didn't have a diploma....
now on the ghetto side - if someone came to me and asked for a job and gave me a "demo reel" and a diploma i'd know they were far too wet behind the ears to be given a job to begin with. you know? you have to make your job nowadays in most audio work. i'd tell them they are more than welcome to rent my place out at a reduced rate and they can charge on top of it...but i, like most studios i know, are so far from the whole "give you a job" thing that it's silly to even ask…though I do see studios act like they have something more to offer than that.
Which is a nice segway into saying i'm completely down with the kids who complain about interning and not getting audio work. i'm sorry but outside of major markets - i've rarely seen an internship worth the time to take in the last 15 years since i left school. most studios are insipid and use interns for free grunt work or to get the word on "on the street" with their friends and have no training path offered. yes you have to have initiative...but the studio has to provide training to make it worth it - or the kid may as well "open" a place, charge nothing, and butcher audio until he learns how to butcher properly. Kudos to the kids who figure this out early in bad internships...the ones that do provide good internships, like telarc, get the good guys.
Mike
i ran across a nice kid in the past year who just got hired on at telarc. he was in a 4 year audio program in southern ohio...he quit after year 2 if i remember correctly and started working for a live sound company. he came into a job i was taking a split from and dealt with a difficult situation in top form. his audio skills were good...but what impressed me most was his people skills and work ethic. i'm betting the same thing impressed telarc while he was interning there. i'm also betting he didn't have a demo reel...and he sure didn't have a diploma....
now on the ghetto side - if someone came to me and asked for a job and gave me a "demo reel" and a diploma i'd know they were far too wet behind the ears to be given a job to begin with. you know? you have to make your job nowadays in most audio work. i'd tell them they are more than welcome to rent my place out at a reduced rate and they can charge on top of it...but i, like most studios i know, are so far from the whole "give you a job" thing that it's silly to even ask…though I do see studios act like they have something more to offer than that.
Which is a nice segway into saying i'm completely down with the kids who complain about interning and not getting audio work. i'm sorry but outside of major markets - i've rarely seen an internship worth the time to take in the last 15 years since i left school. most studios are insipid and use interns for free grunt work or to get the word on "on the street" with their friends and have no training path offered. yes you have to have initiative...but the studio has to provide training to make it worth it - or the kid may as well "open" a place, charge nothing, and butcher audio until he learns how to butcher properly. Kudos to the kids who figure this out early in bad internships...the ones that do provide good internships, like telarc, get the good guys.
Mike
masteringhouse
www.masteringhouse.com
Nice analogy!
Very true, but students need to do their "due diligence" and research a studio before asking for an internship. From the perspective of the studio one also has to realize that the main engineer is using time where he could be getting paid to train someone who in all likelihood is just using that training and experience for his resume and to work somewhere else, possibly a competing studio. It cuts both ways.
I've had a couple of interns at my studio, usually it's pretty easy to determine what their ultimate goals are by what type of work they are willing to perform on behalf of the studio. If they complain about performing non-audio related tasks when asked you can pretty well be assured that they are only there for themselves. Wax on, right hand. Wax off, left hand young grasshopper ...
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i agree with ya somewhat...my thought is if studios trained them and managed them so they don't go elsewhere...there would be a better situation.
maybe do a 30 day thing to get to know them..then figure if you want to invest in them and vice versa.
you can look at a kid who complains about doing non-audio work as spoiled - or motivated. as a manager i'd look at that as an opportunity to get some editing off my hands... or as an opportunity to say "ok - you want audio work? bring it in...i'll help ya on the quality and show you want's up...but you have to generate the business."
perhaps they aren't getting enough audio work to make it worth their while and they are speaking up about it. the intern's manager should fix that...
or perhaps they just are lazy nose pickers who gave a good interview. let em go after 30 days.
point being...there really is a dirth of good places to learn audio "in the field" and as such there are tons of crappy mastering set ups. look at all these kids spending thousands on an education and then looking for a job...then look at all the studios going under. hm...cut the middle man...and maybe build a second room for the B room.
Mike
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
Either way, it's the result of unmanaged expectations gone wild.
I kinda see it as a general lack of respect for this field, and for just what it takes to actually be good in it. Sure, it's taken less seriously because - let's be honest here - what we do is nowhere near as important as what a plumber or an electrician or a doctor does. But that doesn't make it any easier to actually *do* (as just about every newb who posts a question here has discovered).
But because of the relative "seriousness" of these other trades, people understand that that a doctor, for example, even after 6-8 years of college, still has to go through a grueling year or two of internship with 72-hour-long shifts with no sleep, followed by a year or two of residency before they can even think of hanging out their own shingle, and that even when electricians get out of school, they still have to go through a structured apprenticeship program, often not even being allowed to touch live circuits for a while, before thy can truly call themselves and consider themselves licensed electricians.
But because we're only making music - and because the clown down at Guitar Ash tells us so - all we need to do is buy some crap gear for less than the price of our guitar, get an Internet domain for $10 a year, and put up a website calling ourselves a professional audio engineer.
And if we've gone to school for it, even more so. God forbid a world where, like with the other trades, we actually have to work for it or get licensed for it.
Unfortunately, I find it real hard to think of a circumstance where many lives are lost in a tragic audio engineering accident, causing some kind of regulation to be considered:"Oh my god, don't tough that fader! Noooooo!!!! *BOOM*"
. So in the meantime, it's simply gonna have to be buyer beware.G.
masteringhouse
www.masteringhouse.com
Unfortunately, I find it real hard to think of a circumstance where many lives are lost in a tragic audio engineering accident, causing some kind of regulation to be considered:"Oh my god, don't touch that fader! Noooooo!!!! *BOOM*"
I've heard of a story where a Hip-Hop client was holding a gun to the head of an engineer telling him that he wanted more bass after the engineer said that there was already too much.
I would have no problem letting an intern get some real world audio experience in that situation.
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
Hmmmmm....I'd have to seriously consider taking the bullet on that one. Remember that old Jack Benny skit?
Robber: "Your money our your life!"
Benny: "I'm thinking it over!"
G.
comparing this to industries like trade unions and doctors is really interesting...if a little off, no offense and i'm sure you would agree. it's interesting and a little off as those industries have regimented programs where folks who come out on the other side are well educated and trained. very few programs in audio are the same.
if you asked a resident surgeon to make copies or answer the phone for 40 hours a week in the hope he or she would get a chance to one day *gasp* see the inside of an operating room, he or she would and should, tell you to stick it.
You'd be better off comparing this to nursing - an industry that suffers from a lack of quality education and a lot of BS "trade schools" claiming to educate. therefore there is a lack of qualified people to employ. likewise, i think a lot of nursing burnout comes from simply not being trained and managed properly - but blaming it on the nurse looking for a gig is backwards.
i agree - this is a lack of respect of the trade and what it takes. however, i think this lack of respect isn't coming from the kids who want to get in - though i'm sure there are a few. it's mainly coming from the industry who isn't training them properly...and from intern programs that offer a bridge to nowhere in return for supporting a recording business for free.
Mike
if you asked a resident surgeon to make copies or answer the phone for 40 hours a week in the hope he or she would get a chance to one day *gasp* see the inside of an operating room, he or she would and should, tell you to stick it.
You'd be better off comparing this to nursing - an industry that suffers from a lack of quality education and a lot of BS "trade schools" claiming to educate. therefore there is a lack of qualified people to employ. likewise, i think a lot of nursing burnout comes from simply not being trained and managed properly - but blaming it on the nurse looking for a gig is backwards.
i agree - this is a lack of respect of the trade and what it takes. however, i think this lack of respect isn't coming from the kids who want to get in - though i'm sure there are a few. it's mainly coming from the industry who isn't training them properly...and from intern programs that offer a bridge to nowhere in return for supporting a recording business for free.
Mike
DavidK
New member
I would take that for granted. Hopefully, someone associated with the music biz would have a lifetime of experience in that respect.
I would feel deceived if someone said they had "4 years of experience" and it was school, at least how it fits in with this thread. I would expect an ME with experience to have credits and a whole bunch of CDs under his belt.
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
I DO agree, which was my point; there IS a difference in practice, even though there's very little difference in required skill level.
I was hoping the concept of "union" wouldn't come up, because that just kind of clouds the point. The way I look at it, whether the "rules" come from state safety regulations or whether they come from arbitrary protective union rules, or even whether it's intrinsically a good idea or not, is all beside the point; the point is, very few people have trouble accepting that that's the way it is. But virtually no one accepts that similar hoops need be jumped through to be a quality audio engineer.
True enough. OK, the analogy isn't 1:1 exact. My point there was one doesn't come out of medical school an expect to hang up their shingle as a general practitioner, let alone a cardiologist.
They accept the fact that they have to go through the incredible hardship of internship - the Army Rangers boot camp of medicine - for 18 months to two years or so, and then even after that, still have to go through residency, before they can actually be the kind of doctor they dreamed of back when they first applied for their student loan.
I couldn't agree with you more here. I currently take care of 24/7 my 87 yr old mother. She was a registered nurse for something like 51 years before she retired. She was a top graduate of Northwestern University, and had done every type of nursing over those years from emergency room to private nurse to supervisor of an entire psych ward.
Well, because of her age and health, she spends a lot of time in hospitals these days as a patient. She never fails to be absolutely disgusted with nurses who couldn't find a vein to draw blood to save their lives, or who have no idea - let alone interest - in figuring out how to make the patient comfortable when it's obvious they are twisted up in one of those hospital beds, etc. The level of incompetence in nursing these days is incredible compared to the way it used to be. (I blame the pajamas that nurses wear these days. Put them back in those sexy white uniforms and hats, I say! Then even if they suck, at least I'll die with a smile on my face
) The sad thing is that - even adjusting for inflation - today's nurses get paid four to five times what my mother ever did.
There's a huge difference there though, IMHO. Your average nurse these days isn't looking to play doctor. In fact your average medical employee isn't even looking to play nurse; they happily skate through on a 3-month-course training them how to operate an X-ray machine or on how to take vital signs, and get a job as "medical technician" and they're more than happy not to do anything more than that (for now).bigtoe said:
What I'm seeing in audio is just the opposite. People want to do the jobs of tracking engineer, mixing engineer, mastering engineer and producer themselves, they don't even *want* to go to school for it, and they expect to just be able to hand out their Internet shingle just because they were bold enough to steal other people's software off of Limewire. And they want - no, *expect* - to be right up there with the Big Boys with the product they put out (whether they always admit that or not.)
And as far as the internships from schools go, it seems to me that the ones complaining are not so much because they are ambitious, but because their ambitions are unrealistic. Are there some studios out there that unfairly use school interns as slave labor instead? Sure there are. But they rarely last in the intern programs of the better schools, I don't think. And at the same time, the student needs to understand that nobody in their right mind is going to make them engineer on a money project right out of the gate, and that even if all they are doing for the first three months is winding cables, that how well and how enthusiastically they wind those cables could make or break the rest of their career.
Look at one of the other big internship fields: broadcasting and communications. There we have college grad interns acting as ushers in talk shows or as the "gal in the street" asking stupid questions of passersby on 20 below zero days when the paid talent is too smart to go outside themselves. These interns don't complain that they are not in the broadcast control room or producing a radio show, instead they are grateful to be lucky enough to be working for NBC or WGN or whatever, and using every spare moment they have when they are not ushering or shivering outside to learn the ins and outs of the business through observation and volunteerism.
One may not be able to hang outside of Sun Records and wait for their big break anymore, but I'll bet you most people would give their left nut to actually get their foot in the door, even if it is still only getting coffee and doughnuts, because the opportunity to learn what they don't teach you in school is incredible, even if nobody is actually holding you hand and spoon feeding it to you.
And let's not forget the resume factor. Even if all you did was scrub toilets, to be able to say "Interned at Sun Records" on the top of your resume will open more doors downstream than "Set up my own Internet mastering service" probably ever will.
G.
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SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
Ha! Jinx! You owe me a Pepsi!
I just tried to get some numbers out of my mom, of course numbers get tough when you're 87, but she thinks she was class of '49. Which means she was a nurse for only about 40 years or so. The 51 years must have been how long she worked in general. Still a damn long time. EDIT: Now I'm curious. I think there's an old class pic of my mom's class lying around the house somewhere...I'll have to see if I can find it.
Go Wildcats!
G.
I just tried to get some numbers out of my mom, of course numbers get tough when you're 87, but she thinks she was class of '49. Which means she was a nurse for only about 40 years or so. The 51 years must have been how long she worked in general. Still a damn long time. EDIT: Now I'm curious. I think there's an old class pic of my mom's class lying around the house somewhere...I'll have to see if I can find it.
Go Wildcats!
G.
i for sure see your points...and i very much agree that *some* home guys expect far too much and thing what every they do is as good as a pro studio...oddly enough, the few i see with that attitude come from a 4 year program (case or OU.) most of the younger guys i meet are dying to learn and have drive...and know the difference between what they do and what pro place does...
the debate could go on and on...but i'll always give the kid the benefit of the doubt and the "larger" or mid level studio a suspicious eye. i've dealt with both for years...one tries harder than the other for the most part...of course i'll also always take my business to a quality mastering guy. the quality you get for 500-600 these days is insanely cheap.
on that note - go wildcats indeed. i wish i were in evanston now - daves italian kitchen!
Mike
the debate could go on and on...but i'll always give the kid the benefit of the doubt and the "larger" or mid level studio a suspicious eye. i've dealt with both for years...one tries harder than the other for the most part...of course i'll also always take my business to a quality mastering guy. the quality you get for 500-600 these days is insanely cheap.
on that note - go wildcats indeed. i wish i were in evanston now - daves italian kitchen!
Mike
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
As evidenced by my name, I'm about as far from Evanston as one can get, so I'm not familiar with that place. I'll have to look it up and see if it's still around, though; I've made it kind of a hobby to take my mom out about once a week and try a new restaurant somewhere in the 4-state area (literally, we've ranged from Prarie du Chein, Wisconsin to Holland, Michigan on our day trips). She *loves* eating at restaurants...I'd much rather save my money, personally, but it makes things at least somewhat pleasant for her to be able to go somewhere other than a hospital on a regular basis
I guess we just see different segments if the racket. I'm going upon the clients and email and phone calls I get on a regular basis as well as the last few years of being on this forum. There is an expectation set that the gear most commonly sold at Guitar Ash is of the same quality as the stuff used in commercial studios just because it's of the same capacity, and that all the operator needs is that one or two "secret recipes" or "tricks of the pros" and one is then an audio engineer.
Hell, there's an active thread right now where the newb knows absolutely zilch and says the success of his band depends upon the success of his studio. It makes one almost want to cry because you can see the accident coming right down the highway and there's nothing one can do to stop it.
These guys are not the ones coming out of a school; hell taking four years to learn this stuff is just not even considered reasonable for these guys in a hurry to get their band up on meSpace or to hang their "mastering by email" shingle out on the Internet. Try telling these guys that it takes time and work to get the proper skill set and they shoot you down for being elitist.
OTOH, those regulars here who are grads of these schools - folks like Benny Chico and Lee Rosario and others - not only seem to have their heads screwed on straight, but have either internships or full-time graduate positions already that they are quite happy with.
Are there disgruntled school grads here? Sure, but I'll bet in many cases that making them happy would have required more work on their employer's part than the student was willing to invest themselves.
Well, Mike, you can have the last word on this if you'd like it. But I think I'm just repeating myself at this point. I think we both have valid points and probably have positions based as much on local perspective as anything else. It's like the two blind guys trying to tell what an elephant looks like when one can only feel the foot and the other only the trunk
.G.
Ironklad Audio
New member
to not get involved in the long-winded ranting that's going on here, i'd say that place looks dubious as best as far as a "mastering" facility goes
I have a great checklist of my own:
1. Master and burn reference CD - $10/song
2. Raise volume - $5/song
3. Raise volume more - $3/song
4. Raise volume to radio spec - $2/song
5. Brickwall/compress/limit using the full rack- $1/song
6. Make it a square wave/DC - Free with options purchased above
