Raising Master Fader to gain volume

[Farview]

Mystery solved.

 

[mixsit]

"Can we make a Cliff's Notes in layman's terms?
It's getting so technical, and I can't keep up with all this. "
Nola here's an example of along the lines of what might have explained the meter scale question.
http://hux.com.au/Soapbox Items/World Audio level Reference.pdf
Notice '0dBU (.775 volts) is 'typical line level' on an analog device and meter.
Over on the right are some different digital meter alignments. Converters can have various scaling of their voltage in/out vs where their 0dBFS is.
I don't know if that explains what DrTechno' was alluding to or not (haven't thought that trough.. my mind's done for moment on this one :>) But it'll steer you in the general direction.

 

[miroslav]

That's the strange part... the interface is fixed point, so anything above 0dbfs should clip the converters, even if it isn't clipping in the box.

The only thing that would stop that would be if samplitude was scaling the signal to match the converter's limits...which no other daw does. I will test this out on my version of samplitude in a couple weeks.

All daws run a floating point bit depth internally, but it gets converted to fixed point for the converters. Unless the daw is scaling the output, the converters will.clip. if the daw is scaling the output, then the metering is useless at that point.

I'm not sure if the DAW is scaling anything for the converters, I'll have to look deeper into that...and I can try it using the on-board computer sound card when I get a chance.

That said...the DAW metering is still 100% valid because it's showing you where you really are at, even though you are not hearing the clipping.

So I found this comment by another user on the Samplitude user forum:

On my DAW, with a Lynx AES16 PCI card and Aurora 16 converter, the Lynx meters matched the Samp Pro X meters perfectly. No clip indication all the way up to 0 dbfs, and then a clip at +0.1 dbfs.

However, I had a different situation on my laptop with an Echo Indigo IOx that I use as a headphone amp/ASIO driver. The Indigo has 8 virtual outputs and a master. The 1-2 virtual output meter matched the Pro X meter, but the master out was down by 3 db on the meter. The Indigo meters don't have any clip indication, so I couldn't test to see if it matched the Samp meters. Just for fun, I pushed up the Pro X fader to +12 and the Indigo master meter stayed at -3.

I have no idea why this discrepancy exists, but I always record and mix at low levels, so it's never been an issue for me.

Now he's using an Echo Indigo...where I'm using the Echo Layla24...but it makes me wonder if the Echo boxes have something in their design that prevents the level from going into clipping...???
Like said if I export an audio track from Samplitude while it's hitting above 0dBFS...and then play that exported track back, I can certainly hear clipping.
So it looks like there's something in the converters that prevents it from happening when I'm working from within Samplitude.
I can do some more tests tonight and see if I can sort it out...but honestly, just like the guy in the quote above...I never work with levels in the red anyway, so it's never been an issue. Everything...DAW and converters...stay below 0dBFS.
I don't raise my MB fader above 0 dBFS to compensate for low track levels.

Also, as others confirmed on the Samplitude forums...just because you see overs doesn't mean you are actually clipping, and just because you don't see overs, doesn't mean you are not clipping...the DAW processing depth can "hide" that reality until you export out to a lower bit depth.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

Okay, now that I'm listening for it my setup definitely has audible distortion if it is pushed past 0dBFS. I ran a mastered audio file of a dynamic mix with the master fader at +12dB. In the quieter parts the distortion was masked by the music to some degree, but in the louder parts it was blatant crackle and fuzz. The exported file sounds the same, even if I lower the gain on playback to avoid clipping the converter. It's not the sound of my converter clipping, it's the sound of the clipped waveform.

 

[miroslav]

I'll have to do a little more checking...but Echo has always done things a little "differently" with their interfaces/converters than everyone else....slightly different design approaches.

TBH...as I said, I've never bothered looking into it before, I just don't ever recall hearing my DAW setup clipping from too much level.
I've had it hiccup and stutter by overloading it with processing/FX or multiple real-time samplers...etc...but never had a problem with clipping.

The trouble is...Echo stopped making interfaces/converters...and the Layla24 boxes are like 3 generation back from their last product line...so it's kinda hard to get detailed info about the inner workings. I tried Googling a bunch of things about the output levels and the metering...and didn't find anything so far.

 

[mixsit]

I'll have to do a little more checking...but Echo has always done things a little "differently" with their interfaces/converters than everyone else....slightly different design approaches.

TBH...as I said, I've never bothered looking into it before, I just don't ever recall hearing my DAW setup clipping from too much level.
I've had it hiccup and stutter by overloading it with processing/FX or multiple real-time samplers...etc...but never had a problem with clipping.

The trouble is...Echo stopped making interfaces/converters...and the Layla24 boxes are like 3 generation back from their last product line...so it's kinda hard to get detailed info about the inner workings. I tried Googling a bunch of things about the output levels and the metering...and didn't find anything so far.

Seems like maybe your hedging your bet' a little (? :>) Between 'it doesn't clip' (as long as i wasn't 'rendered), and 'didn't sound like it clipped'? :>)

I guess I keep coming back to; how does a converter not see 0' from the DAW as also the top of its range? (Can a DAW even cause that to happen(? I don't know :>)

 

[miroslav]

No hedging....I'm not sure where your getting that difference in wording from what I said ... but I gotta remember to always use the exact same verbiage every time from now on.

I know what digital clipping sounds like...and I know what analog distortion sounds like.

 

[mixsit]

Yeah I'm just winging it here (paraphrasing etc.

TBH...as I said, I've never bothered looking into it before, I just don't ever recall hearing my DAW setup clipping from too much level.

I was thinking maybe this could have meant 'could have clipped, just never noticed'.

Again...I had the DAW slamming at +12 dBFS...the soft console for the converter set at the normal +4 reference level, and there the meter only goes to 0 dBFS....regardless of what I was seeing in the DAW.
So all in the red, cranked...and NO digital clipping.

I know it was LOUD as hell, because I had to turn my Monitors way lower to keep from blowing out my ears from their usual monitoring setting...so yeah, it wasn't just a visual metering thing...there was some serious volume, but still no digital clipping.

That said, if I bounce out an audio file like that...and then play it back, it's clipped to the max.

And you did say rendering was totally different.
Somewhere in there is the key .. guess :>)

 

[miroslav]

And you did say rendering was totally different.
Somewhere in there is the key .. guess :>)

In a nutshell...and the only thing I was trying to say to Nola...
A DAW with deep bit depth, floating point precision can sometimes "hide" the fact that you are clipping....but when you export/render down to 16bit/44.1...suddenly those clips are very obvious.
I mean where you're just going over and it sounds fine...and I'm not talking about where you've got every track and MB fader slammed to the max and you're seeing nothing but red.

I only mentioned the real high +12 dBFS level because as I said, I've never heard my system clip even when I'm seeing lots if red above 0 dBFS...and as best as I can tell why, it's something in how the Echo Layla24 is dealing with the signal and I haven't yet found what/why that is...but that's not important for what I was saying to Nola....that's a separate discussion.

Something is happening at the Layla24 converters that keeps them from clipping...and I don't think it's any special setting, as I've never/ever screwed with that. I keep my DAW metering pretty basic, and no oddball "rules" etc...it's all default shit.
I wish I knew what the deal was...and I wish I had another interface that I could compare to.
Not sure if anyone else here is still using the Layla24 converters....? The only other person I remember using them was Beck...who is no longer with us on HR.

Can we make a Cliff's Notes in layman's terms?

This made my day...and I don't say that mockingly. I totally feel your pain, as things sometimes just spin out of control and were practically down to atom splitting theories...but it's not intentional.
Just sift through it and pull from it what makes sense to you...you can ignore most of the side discussions.

 

[RFR]

I know not the technicalities, but.......
Just as Miro stated, I've observed this myself.


Here's the simple cliff notes version.
Something is going above zero in the daw

It's clipping, but doesnt sound like it's clipping when playing in the daw.

Upon exporting, rendering, bouncing, or whatever making a digital stereo mix is called in your daw, you will now hear the clipping in your final mix.

I have experimented with and observed this phenomenon.

Now why it's not heard in the daw.....I have no idea. Nor do I care.

But the solution is to let nothing go over zero or into the red. Analog distortion can sound good, digital clipping sounds like ass.

.

 

[drtechno]

It's clipping, but doesnt sound like it's clipping when playing in the daw.

Now why it's not heard in the daw.....I have no idea. Nor do I care.
.

I asked a programmer that write DAW software once and he told me that there is a process of limiting on the playback engine. But unlike peak limiting, they drop least significant bits after an averaging algorythm. As in this example, inside the DAW mixer's digital bit width is 40bit, but the metering is 24bit and rendering amplitude window is 24bit. Since rendering doesn't use the playback engine it doesn't interpolate the clip. Some DAWs will let you use this, but you have to render in real time so that the playback engine is used. The only thing about this is that the real time rendered track will have a tendency to clip DACs in cd players.

I should add that "loudness of the mix" really doesn't have as much to do with amplitude as its more of the distance between the soft and loud parts in the mix.

 

[RFR]

That's a good answer to a question I didn't know or care about. But maybe I did care. Thanks