questions for the pro's

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smellyfuzz

smellyfuzz

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OK..............................

I have questions for the pro's out there.


The first time I walked into a recording studio, about 12 years ago,
I was introduced to playing to a click track.

Ever since, a lot of times I would get into heated arguments with fellow
band members about the click.
Most drummers hated it and I understood why, their style would get mechanical
and non passionate.

So my questions are..............

Do the big bands in big recording studios use a click always, sometimes, rarely?

Is there a way to make the click easier for the drummer?
 
I'm in the process of producing my own band's CD...

...and we are using clicks. Our drummer had problems only when the tempo of the click wasn't fast enough in a couple of places. IN that case, we simply sped up to the necessary tempo to adjust (by a couple of percent).

Drummers are used to setting the timing of the band - inconsistent drummers have a tough time with the click, consistent drummers seem to find it a no-brainer.

Even the best drummer in the world will deviate somewhat from the click from time to time... the way I've been working with it is is that the drummer tracks to the click and scratch tracks, we get a solid drum take down, then we never listen to the click again (except for areas of a tune that there are no drums to track to!) If the drummer mildy deviated from the click to inject some feel here and there, that's fine, 'cos the remainder of the tracks are then cut based on the drum track, and not so much on the click.

I have no idea if my experiences are similar to what happens in the big boys studios, but that's what I've encountered personally with my band's stuff and a few clients so far.... the four S's (sonusman, shailat, sjoko2, and Sayers), not to mention occasional onlooker Harvey Gerst, may have more insight to offer than I.

Bruce
 
I'm not a pro.

I'm barely even an amatuer. But my two cents is that you let the drummer go buckwild, and everyone else can follow suit. Forget the click, and embrace the human imperfections.
 
still-learnin said:
I'm not a pro.

I'm barely even an amatuer. But my two cents is that you let the drummer go buckwild, and everyone else can follow suit. Forget the click, and embrace the human imperfections.
Click to expand...
Well.... maybe - if you record the entire band (or at least the core rhythm section) at the same time. But in a project environment (vs. a commercial studio environment) or even more-so in a home environment, tracking occurs primarily via overdubs, so a click/scratch track is absolutely necessary for a timing reference to play against. You simply can't "forget the click".

Bruce
 
Blue Bear Sound said:

Well.... maybe - if you record the entire band (or at least the core rhythm section) at the same time. But in a project environment (vs. a commercial studio environment) or even more-so in a home environment, tracking occurs primarily via overdubs, so a click/scratch track is absolutely necessary for a timing reference to play against. You simply can't "forget the click".

Bruce
Click to expand...

Very true !.

If your into the sloppy style of rock and roll then a click
is not an issue.
Or as Bruce said if the rhythm section is playing together
all at once.
But on overdubbing, I always work with a click.
Look at it like this...the drummer plays with out a click and almost gets it but a few spots here and there...
The Bass comes along and does his best to match the drummer's moving out of the click here and there and does a "not bad of a job". The guitarist then comes along and now has 2 different instruments to almost sync to...you get the picture ?...by the time the vocals start, it's a mess....all lopsided......

like a building made of playing cards
If the foundation is not stable, dont expect it to hold up
to well on the top.

The drummer is NOT expected to play exactly like the click ( trust me when I say almost NO drummer can play exactly on the click beat for beat) Even if he tries hard
he wont be able unless his name is Steve Gadd.
So no matter what you will get a drum track that is not a machine.

One trick to a good performance is to use a click track and a sequenced guide track that is good or simply a good guide track that will keep the drummer on beat yet inspire him to play well and on the beat. I even quantize the whole sequence.

Many session drummers (hired pro's) get pissed if
there is no click. As one said to me ..."I'll play free but you give me a dead on click.

Another solution is to give the drummer a different
groove to play on. Like a good conga loop that fits your initial groove. This will help him play more musical.

Some drummers think they dont need to practice scales and licks and hey are so sure they know the song well all they have to do is come into the studio and belt it out. Well.....it's about time they practiced at home how to play to a click.
 
Cheap free plug!

Shailat said:
The drummer is NOT expected to play exactly like the click ( trust me when I say almost NO drummer can play exactly on the click beat for beat) Even if he tries hard
he wont be able unless his name is Steve Gadd.
So no matter what you will get a drum track that is not a machine.
Click to expand...

Gotta plug my brother Bryan Valeriani here - he's unbelievable, can lock to a click in a second! Mind you, he's studied in New York for a while with a number of exceptional drummers (including the likes of Weckl, Rosenblatt, and Wittet)... I was lucky to get him on 4 cuts on my band's forthcoming CD while we were undergoing a personnel change (for a new drummer...)

Bruce
 
Little story: I played in a Big Band at a local music school, few years ago. The drummer (extremely good) would just take his (slightly advanced) metronome, put headphones in it, and play along while rehearsing. Just for the hell of it.
And occasionally, he would just sight-read the score instead of playing just -something-. And there's also the time that there was no guitar part, so I could do the triangle. And he would just sight-read the score, and point where we were and when I had to start at the same time, and in the mean time have a good laugh at me, twisting and twirling his sticks around as if there was nothing better to do while we were at it. Kid was huge...

Good drummers don't mind. For bad drummers it's a good exercise. Put it on!
 
Again, no pro here. But here's how I usually do it.

I play a scratch guitar to a click track, maybe with a vocal. I've only been playing drums for about 3 years so I still need the beat to be musical in order to get it right. I can't play drums to a click track, but I can play drums to a scratch guitar and vocal that are in time.

Doing things this way, I find my drumming sounds more confident and natural.
 
I agree with the idea of a guide track. Not that it will help many but I have a KORG D16 that I record to; it has an in-built 215 drum patterns. Any drummer should be able to work alongside a synthetic track that will mirror his performance. His (I guess I should be saying his/her) job is to embellish the track.
 
History of the click track...

A long time ago, in a galaxy not unlike our own...

Recordings were made live on a sound stage, with a conductor and orchestra or band. Microphones were placed carefully, and the record was "Cut" to an acetate disk. The tempo was "fluid" it would be set by the conductor, and would speed up and slow down with the mood of the music.

Then along came Tape recorders, and multi-track recording, and some way of keeping the over-dubs in time was necessary. So the "click track" was born.

I have been in many professional recording studios, and most times a "click" is used. Unless the group is playing live and wants a "Fluid" tempo.

When overdubing and doing several parts yourself, you will need a click. All professional studio drummers must learn to lock in to a click, and they learn to love it!

Dom Franco
 
With rare exceptions most recordings use click tracks (almost mandatory on the big budget pop/country recordings). All of these recordings involve overdubs, etc. The problem many musicians (in particular drummers) have with a click is - they consider it a strict master, rather than a guide. The point of a click is to maintain a steady tempo, not to try and land the snare exactly on the beat.

I've played drums for years and I thought (as did the musicians I worked with) that I had very good tempo. Then clicks came along and I learned my tempo was not solid. It took some work (and on occasion some pressure and even shame in the studio - I've been replaced on sessions) but I finally learned to consider the click as a friend.

Often choosing the right sound (a tambourine rather then a stick sound, etc.) makes a huge difference. When I produce, I create a programmed groove (maybe a tambourine/shaker/cowbell thing). This makes it feel like you're playing with a percussion section rather than a click track - this helps to play to the groove rather than be ruled by the click.
 
Also not a pro, but...

Sometimes a click is good, sometimes it's bad. There are songs that should wander in tempo. Maybe start slower and be 10 or 15 BPM faster by the end of the tune. Sometimes the song feels good with tempo variances throughout. I feel tempo variances can be used to great effect, like dynamics can.

With that said, it's important to draw the distinction between "not playing to a click" and "unable to play to a click". Some tunes should keep good, solid time without a lot of speed-up/slow-down crap. I think Emeric recently said something like "play around the click, not to it"... or something like that. Good advice. If a drummer (or any other band member) can't follow as well as lead, they need work.

Know how to play to a click. Know when not to use it.
 
Funny thing, click tracks.............
If you are in a studio with a pro - believe me, he / she will use a click track for the initial basic tracking.
If you are in the studio with a "not so pro", he / she will object to a click track.

The argument that a track looses "feel" when you use a click track is nonsense. If you have a competent percussionist, he / she will be able to push a track, or drag it, if and where it is required.

All the people I work with use click tracks. Laying to initial drum tracks down is the foundation of a song. How could you expect everyone else to track over that if it is not tight? Tempo changes, that's different, in which case you'll have to make a click track which incorporates the changes.

In my way of working, the first thing we do is pre-production prior to going into the studio. Normally I will lay a basic loop down in the right tempo and feel of a song, fill it out with some keys to lay down the basics of the harmony in the chorus and verses, and then add a scratch vocal. After that, everyone involved can start planning and rehearsing their parts. When the project hits the studio, I will remove most elements from the pre-prod tracks, leaving a sound the drummer is happy with as a reference. Normally also leave the scratch vocal, low down in the cue mix, as a reference point.
Result..... smooth sessions.

If people like Aerto and Jota Morelli use click tracks when they record, but you don't want to, ask yourself, is my timing better then theirs?
 
I have found it extremely difficult to try and multitrack without a solid tempo. I do agree with pglewis in that some songs need to fluctuate tempo. Not only is it part of musical expression but sometimes human imperfections can add life to a song. Otherwise everything would sound like an old computer game. BUT that is NOT an excuse to not be able to play in tempo or to a click track. The lack of a solid tempo is usually the first indication of the lack of musical ability. Starting a song in one tempo and ending in another just screams garage band.
 
Sounds cool!

Far from pro here,
But still tryin'. I think the click sounds pretty handy for my situation. At the risk of sounding ignorant, What's the best way to set up the click ? Is it a midi click ?
Thanx, T.
 
best way to set-up a click depends entirely on the type of gear you have.
Also, you don't HAVE TO have a "normal" click. I use whatever sounds nice in a new track, could be a hand clap, a conga, anything pleasant, but never one of those irritating "click" clicks
 
Hey everybody,
Forgive my pathetic naivete, but what kind of device would I use to produce a click track? If this is something I may need for possible future projects, it would be good to know. I have lots of friends who I'd like to record, and I want to be able to set them straight.. sure, we could just record "live" and do a fun thing, but I'd like to try my hand at some serious multitracking, and I wanna know what I'm doing. (...and I wanna look like a know-it-all so they will all bow down before me and chant in mystic dialects...)

Dig it?

Isaiah
 
sjoko2!!!

Why do you keep posting what I want to say?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?! :D You are like my oasis in a very vast dessert of engineering purgatory

I have some decent tracks on tape of a band where we used a shaker and a bongo for the "click track" that sounded very musical to very heavy music! Go figure....In one of the tracks, we needed to slow the tempo down about 15bpm. It did take a little doing with the drum machine to incorporate this tempo change slowdown, AND the speed up to the original tempo, but when overdubs started, it was a god send! No questions where the downbeat was at all!

I also agree that a competent drummer will definitely know how to push and pull a click track to their will! If a drummer can't, well, go practice!!!! Hell, Steve Smith admitted to me that he used a click track in several sessions! He is about as good as they get, and his "live" timing is almost mechanical.

A click track is a must if overdubs are going to happen later, and the artist has an eye towards quality tracking.

Again, if a drummer CAN'T play a great track to a click track, they are the wrong person for the gig! No exceptions in my book. EVERY session I have recorded where the drummer didn't want to play to the click turned out sounding very funky (and that is not funky in a good sense of the word....)

Just my two cents.

Ed
 
Re: sjoko2!!!

sonusman said:
...vast dessert of engineering purgatory...
Click to expand...

Yum sonusman, can I get my dessert with chocolate sauce?
Never mind, I'll have the chocolate mousse instead... :D

That's SUCH a poetic line, Ed - didn't know you had it in you! Do you sing too? ;)

Bruce
:)
 
I sure do Bruce. And when I do, that is when you hear the dogs howling in your neck of the woods! I am world wide baby! ;)

DESERT!!! That is what I meant damnit....:( But dessert works pretty well too really....:)

Ed
 
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