Question regarding latency/artifacts. Is this normal?

[bethanyb321]

hey something im just noticing now and not sure if this is normal or there is something up with my computer/soundcard. Lets say for example i have a vst synth that i record a lead while playing with that vst's low pass filter. If i play or mixdown that midi file in one of the fastest latency settings on my rme soundcard i hear the filter opening and closing smooth without artifacts. On say the slowest latency setting (47 ms) when i play or mixdown that same midi file i will hear stuttering/ artifacts. Is this normal? If yes that means i need to set my soundcard to a fast latency setting every time i mixdown/render a vst instrument to audio to avoid artifacts (which i was never aware of before)

I attached short clips below same midi file, one rendered with 12 ms latency and one with 47ms latency soundcard setting .

 

[rob aylestone]

I'm very confused as to what you are doing? The shortest latency appear to be the 12mS setting, and that is clean. The 47mS setting is far longer than would be comfortable as a delay, and stutters - so why would you want to use a longer latency setting, if the fastest one works fine. Latency adjustments really should not even be in the room? Hence I'm wondering if I lost the plot here? Filters and something simple like this just don't tax your system very much, so you don't seem to have a 'fault' to cure? Just use the faster 12mS one which is trouble free?

 

[bethanyb321]

I'm very confused as to what you are doing? The shortest latency appear to be the 12mS setting, and that is clean. The 47mS setting is far longer than would be comfortable as a delay, and stutters - so why would you want to use a longer latency setting, if the fastest one works fine. Latency adjustments really should not even be in the room? Hence I'm wondering if I lost the plot here? Filters and something simple like this just don't tax your system very much, so you don't seem to have a 'fault' to cure? Just use the faster 12mS one which is trouble free?

ive been using the slow latency setting (47ms) on my soundcard in all my projects for like over a year now to save cpu power, since i use tons of heavy plugins in projects and usually max out my cpu power. Never used faster latency except only for very short times when i play something with a keyboard so i hear it play and record on time rather than with a delay from slow latency. I always thought till now latency only has an effect on things you play live. Wasnt aware that slower latencies also have an effect on already recorded midi, and produces artifacts on things like vst synth filter sweeps, which only noticed now. So this behavior is normal and nothing wrong with my system?
if yes this revelation will have a big impact on how i produce from now forward as will make sure to render to audio vsts and project only in fast latency rather than slow which been doing till now
Sorry for the newbie question but this is very important for me

much thanks

 

[rob aylestone]

I don't know - but my systems since my first in 94 have NEVER needed any form of latency tweaking like this to work. My best guess is that with the operation slowed down artificially like this the small controller movements are being stuck into the buffer and read back in blocks, so suddenly it makes a big jump. Continuous controllers in MIDI are normally a very low demand on your processor - even wild wiggles of mod wheels is hardly an effort. You are the first person not on a quest for shorter and shorter latencies. I suspect your system is struggling if you max out your CPU power. That's a good prod that you really need to upgrade. Extending latency to give it a chance to cope is a plaster on a big leaky cut. It doesn't help but I have never done anything with controllers that has done this kind of thing. Your audio processing with lots of VSTi instances is hugely more work than the MIDI side of thing - you must be really close to the edge.

 

[bethanyb321]

I don't know - but my systems since my first in 94 have NEVER needed any form of latency tweaking like this to work. My best guess is that with the operation slowed down artificially like this the small controller movements are being stuck into the buffer and read back in blocks, so suddenly it makes a big jump. Continuous controllers in MIDI are normally a very low demand on your processor - even wild wiggles of mod wheels is hardly an effort. You are the first person not on a quest for shorter and shorter latencies. I suspect your system is struggling if you max out your CPU power. That's a good prod that you really need to upgrade. Extending latency to give it a chance to cope is a plaster on a big leaky cut. It doesn't help but I have never done anything with controllers that has done this kind of thing. Your audio processing with lots of VSTi instances is hugely more work than the MIDI side of thing - you must be really close to the e

Even if i have an empty project and only 1 vst synth loaded this issue will happen with slow latency setting and through testing, some vst synth's filter sweep artifacts are more apparent than other vsts. Already have a powerful new cpu, plugins like nebula/acustica are mostly hogging it. think need to change my workflow than, and try keep my projects always in low latency, as guess latency does have an effect on already recorded midi.
thanks

 

[jamesperrett]

Freeze any tracks that use Acoustica plug-ins. They have a reputation for being very processor heavy so freezing will free up your processor for other things.

 

[rob aylestone]

So 1 VST synth on the fastest (lowest) latency setting is fine - as it should be, but artificially making the latency worse cause the problem? Sorry - I'm really lost now.

Clearly you need to stop, rewind, and look at your workflow seriously - then stop adding in early anything that causes processor backlogs. One of my collaborators on some projects sends me cubase projects - with hundreds of plugins, on hundreds of tracks. 75% of them I don't have on my system and the remaining 25% I'm unsure of. The first thing I do every time is disable the entire lot, and start again. I think he adds them either automatically, or they're in a template. So the snare ALWAYS gets those 6 processes added, his 30 odd tiny guitar tracks all have different ones on different tracks - his bass uses posh compressors and effects and so on.

By the time they leave me, most are gone, or replaced, and as they never go back to him as a Cubase project, all he hears is the finished thing!

 

[Slouching Raymond]

as guess latency does have an effect on already recorded midi.

Recording as midi on a whole bunch of tracks means the whole thing has to be assembled and processed as you listen.
I just record audio tracks, with hardly any plugins, so there's little burden.
Since I set up an appropriate latency correction into Cubase, I find it is no longer an issue.
Your recording world seems to be rather different to mine.
All I can suggest is getting the fastest computer you can afford.

 

[ecc83]

The words "sound card" appears a couple of times but AFAICS no mention of what it is? If an internal Realtek or similar, going to be a problem. An old M-A 2496 has latency lower than most USB interfaces save the Native instruments KA6 and MOTU M4 in th affordable range. RME of course knocks 'king great spots off.

Dave.

 

[bethanyb321]

The words "sound card" appears a couple of times but AFAICS no mention of what it is? If an internal Realtek or similar, going to be a problem. An old M-A 2496 has latency lower than most USB interfaces save the Native instruments KA6 and MOTU M4 in th affordable range. RME of course knocks 'king great spots off.

Dave.

its a babyface pro. What im finding is if i set the soundcard to say 24ms(1024 samples) or slower 47ms (2048 samples) than i will get the artifacts when playing playing a vst synth with filter modulation on it as i sent in the above audio examples. The slower the setting the worse the artifacts. Ive been using the slowest latency setting on my soundcard because i always thought latency only had an effect on playing midi live. Not already recorded midi, as i am just finding out now.
thanks

 

[bethanyb321]

So 1 VST synth on the fastest (lowest) latency setting is fine - as it should be, but artificially making the latency worse cause the problem? Sorry - I'm really lost now.

Clearly you need to stop, rewind, and look at your workflow seriously - then stop adding in early anything that causes processor backlogs. One of my collaborators on some projects sends me cubase projects - with hundreds of plugins, on hundreds of tracks. 75% of them I don't have on my system and the remaining 25% I'm unsure of. The first thing I do every time is disable the entire lot, and start again. I think he adds them either automatically, or they're in a template. So the snare ALWAYS gets those 6 processes added, his 30 odd tiny guitar tracks all have different ones on different tracks - his bass uses posh compressors and effects and so on.

By the time they leave me, most are gone, or replaced, and as they never go back to him as a Cubase project, all he hears is the finished thing!

yes thats correct even on a completely empty project with only 1 vst synth i will get this problem when using a slow latency setting on my babyface pro soundcard. Finding out now that latency has an effect not only on live playing, but also recorded midi is something i was never aware of and just finding out now.
thanks

 

[rob aylestone]

We should also remember that the distinction between midi and audio tracks is very blurred with Vsti sources as an instrument uses audio resources for the synthesis and the sampling but the control isnt really midi at all. It’s only midi when coming in via a real midi din port. The internal wrangling is just data and not even old 8 bit data. The steps of course have the limited resolution but to the experts this coding isnt apparently even complex. I wonder here if the problem is the software and the sound card or interface? She’s not said what that is but the processor is fast so maybe it’s the daw struggling with a weird interface and there is lots of buffering in and out going on?

 

[ecc83]

We should also remember that the distinction between midi and audio tracks is very blurred with Vsti sources as an instrument uses audio resources for the synthesis and the sampling but the control isnt really midi at all. It’s only midi when coming in via a real midi din port. The internal wrangling is just data and not even old 8 bit data. The steps of course have the limited resolution but to the experts this coding isnt apparently even complex. I wonder here if the problem is the software and the sound card or interface? She’s not said what that is but the processor is fast so maybe it’s the daw struggling with a weird interface and there is lots of buffering in and out going on?

It's an RME Babyface Pro Rob so should be just about foolproof though it might be worth checking the driver's date and downloading them afresh?
RME themselves might be helpful if emailed.

Dave.

 

[TalismanRich]

Understand that I do little in the way of MIDI processing, and that's only drum tracks, not keyboards/VST sounds, so I might be off bass here.

I'm wondering how the latency is affecting the playback/VST processing of a midi file. Most of the time latency is a problem when feeding audio INTO and back OUT of the computer. As I understand, the two samples were generated by playing back a MIDI file. I would think that the DAW and computer should have already finished doing all it's processing before it transfers the digital data to the RME for conversion for audio. Unless the Babyface has a problem with output buffer capacity, it should be seemless! It seems to me the issue would be upstream of the Babyface driver.

Does the issue show up if the internal sound device is used? All of the sound generation would be from the DAW and VST plugins, so if the output glitches there, then it takes the RME out of the equation.

 

[rob aylestone]

Good thought. I've been wondering how the controllers are being applied? as in is there a difference between maybe a mod wheel, or rotary fader or linear fader on an external device vs doing it with a mouse? I don't see any differences with any of my gear - the knobs can be turned any way - but maybe the automation is the problem and the bigger buffer does slower sampling of the knob positions, so when one is detected it shifts quite a few degrees, not the smallest steps but more often?

 

[bethanyb321]

through lots of testing now, think this is not just my system, but will happen with you guys as well. Tried using internal soundcard as well as installing cubase/soundcard on another computer and got same results. Any time have like above 20ms latency will notice the stuttering artifacts when play with a vst synths filter. testing like 15 vst synths i have found 2 or 3 for some reason doesnt happen but the rest does. Higher the latency worse the stuttering. Guess i will need to change up my workflow and try never render vst instrument to audio while in high latency again
thanks

 

[rob aylestone]

If you freeze the high dependency audio tracks you’ll never need to change your latency settings. It could simply be an unthought of problem you’ve discovered because you’re using the system differently to those on the usual quest for shorter and shorter latency. I’m just thinking that a slow turn of a filter knob could put out a string of small changes that in high latency systems would perhaps overwrite some of the small changes and give you a big step that you hear as that stutters sound?

 

[bethanyb321]

If you freeze the high dependency audio tracks you’ll never need to change your latency settings. It could simply be an unthought of problem you’ve discovered because you’re using the system differently to those on the usual quest for shorter and shorter latency. I’m just thinking that a slow turn of a filter knob could put out a string of small changes that in high latency systems would perhaps overwrite some of the small changes and give you a big step that you hear as that stutters sound?

i think ur right thats likely whats happening. Never thought to freeze tracks and such since didnt run into cpu problems on high latency setting, but it had consequences i wasnt aware of till now. Always learning new things and glad i learned this now and will start freezing tracks, and working in low latency .
thanks!

 

[jamesperrett]

Remember that MIDI data doesn't go through the audio driver so the audio buffer size has no effect on MIDI data. However, it sounds like your software can only update your plug-in settings once per audio buffer. This is probably down to the particular software that you are using rather than a general problem. I don't think you've told us what DAW and what synth you are using - that would be very helpful information.

 

[bethanyb321]

Remember that MIDI data doesn't go through the audio driver so the audio buffer size has no effect on MIDI data. However, it sounds like your software can only update your plug-in settings once per audio buffer. This is probably down to the particular software that you are using rather than a general problem. I don't think you've told us what DAW and what synth you are using - that would be very helpful information.

im on cubase 9.5, use many vst synths. Some that it is very noticable: omnisphere, trilian. nexus, vanguard
also tested now on studio one demo, same results so dont think its related to sequencer

thanks