Question on Mixing Heavy Rhythms and the stereo spectrum

illimmigrant said:
That's not what I meant, but for having posted several times on this thread it's amazing that you haven't contributed one bit to answering the original question.
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I didn't see a question.

but who seriously thinks they can capture a tone that will sit exactly how you want it to in a mix? Be it guitars, or else.
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I do. That you don't think it's possible explains a lot about what you're doing.

If your (or anyone else's tip) is to capture a better signal going in, so be it. And that's great if you record your own stuff. When you're given a project to mix, you work with what you got,
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Is that actually what you're doing? Didn't you say "I use AxeFX"? I read that to mean you're tracking your own stuff. So which is it? If you're tracking it yourself, get it right.

and I'm after the techniques that help open up a mix a bit. Maybe it's less buss compression, mid/side balancing, better eq, etc. maybe it's using a lower tuned snare so the stick attack doesn't land right where the bite of the guitars is, helping it cut through better, maybe it's all those things, I don't know. That's why I'm asking.
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And you got a shitload of wide ranging answers.
 
Farview said:
It sounds like you are balancing tones of the whole instead of balancing the instruments against each other.
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Hmm. I think it serves you best to keep on mixing the way you do, until you get an "aha" moment about what I mention, how it works, what it does and why. The power of this model is in how it is being implemented and why. In that sense there is a double sided nature to it. It can screw things up...
 
illimmigrant said:
That's not what I meant, but for having posted several times on this thread it's amazing that you haven't contributed one bit to answering the original question. Maybe using high and low pass filters seems over complicated if you don't use any eq on guitars, but who seriously thinks they can capture a tone that will sit exactly how you want it to in a mix? Be it guitars, or else.

If your (or anyone else's tip) is to capture a better signal going in, so be it. And that's great if you record your own stuff. When you're given a project to mix, you work with what you got, and I'm after the techniques that help open up a mix a bit. Maybe it's less buss compression, mid/side balancing, better eq, etc. maybe it's using a lower tuned snare so the stick attack doesn't land right where the bite of the guitars is, helping it cut through better, maybe it's all those things, I don't know. That's why I'm asking.

Thanks all again.
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Greg_L is a strong believer that most of the quality stems from the recording process, hence when you get it right in the recording you do not have to nor should deal with these things in mixing. This is a very common type of understanding among engineers (because one thing works really well, it must mean most other things don't work as well) and there are a lot of examples out there where the production quality has sky rocketed from going this route. In that sense Greg_L has a good point.

It's in my view not a one sided coin though, it's in my view not about focusing only on one thing but rather about striking a balance in one's focus. In your case I find you are focusing on how to achieve a fuller rhythm guitar section over the stereo spectrum and what to consider when making those balancing decisions in mixing. To me that's a fully valid and important topic, a topic guys like Dave Pensado easily would dedicate an "into the lair" episode to. And the fact of the matter is, he has, several episodes:

How To Mix Rock Guitars (and get them WIDE!) - Into The Lair #86
How To Mix Electric Guitars - Into The Lair #96 - YouTube
How To Widen Guitars - Into The Lair #99 - YouTube
Into The Lair #9 Part 1/2 - Widening tracks, clearing out the middle - YouTube

Check them out! :thumbs up:

BTW. The plugins that Dave use here, if you don't have those, only getting those as a result of this thread, will be of great value going forward. :thumbs up:
 
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MusicWater said:
Hmm. I think it serves you best to keep on mixing the way you do, until you get an "aha" moment about what I mention, how it works, what it does and why. The power of this model is in how it is being implemented and why. In that sense there is a double sided nature to it. It can screw things up...
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I'm trying to decypher what you are saying. I've read your posts several times and it just seems like you are stringing buzzwords together. I assume you are ESL, so the translation isn't making any sense.

You are eather doing something completely off the wall, or doing something relatively normal and just explaining it in a strange way. I can't tell.

If you have something I can learn, I would like to, but your explanations seem to be filled with words that are not being used in the normal way. So it's impossible to follow.
 
Farview said:
I'm trying to decypher what you are saying. I've read your posts several times and it just seems like you are stringing buzzwords together. I assume you are ESL, so the translation isn't making any sense.

You are eather doing something completely off the wall, or doing something relatively normal and just explaining it in a strange way. I can't tell.

If you have something I can learn, I would like to, but your explanations seem to be filled with words that are not being used in the normal way. So it's impossible to follow.
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You just haven't had your "aha" moment yet........
 
MusicWater said:
How To Mix Rock Guitars (and get them WIDE!) - Into The Lair #86
How To Mix Electric Guitars - Into The Lair #96 - YouTube
How To Widen Guitars - Into The Lair #99 - YouTube
Into The Lair #9 Part 1/2 - Widening tracks, clearing out the middle - YouTube
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All of these are great, but none of them have anything to do with double tracked heavy guitars. These are all about how to make single mono tracks have some width in a mix where they aren't really the main focus of the rhythm.

I don't see him doing anything like you described.

Besides, we all know this guy knows what he is talking about, let's hear something you have mixed using your technique.
 
Farview said:
it just seems like you are stringing buzzwords together.
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I noticed that too. All of his posts are like that. Rambling, not making much sense, ass-backwards, illogical, links to totally irrelevant youtube vids, etc. I'm not alleging it yet, but something is fishy.
 
illimmigrant, I think if you read the thread from start to finish, it will be a little confusing, because a few non-related aspects have morphed into the discussion and the views about what works and what does not work, vary a lot. I think it serves you well to pick bits and pieces and try them out. I don't agree that those guitar mixing tips videos by Dave that I sent cannot guide you forward in a good way related to this. Did I mention that it helps to record the guitars in stereo and use different signal chains on L and R, then hard pan and compress with enough density and when necessary further shift the frequencies with the EQ on each speaker? You also need the right attack time on those compressors to give those guitars enough bite. When you add the density, increase the threshold, ratio and release time to make it as thick as possible until you notice the rhythm starts taking a hit, then back off from that region towards balance. Also use the EQ to create the desired depth. (when necessary, in conjunction with shelving or high passing the vocals)
 
Greg_L said:
lol this can't be for real. Nice job. You had me going for a second there.
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LOL :guitar: It is for real. It might sound strange or extreme, but it is not. You need different frequencies of the same sound source for the sound sources on the side (no extreme settings) and the same frequencies for the sound sources in the center. This is how the brain can separate out what sound sources are wide out in the stereo field and what sound sources are in the center. The density of the side panned instruments ensure the mix does not pump towards the center by allowing more dense sound sources in the center mask those side frequencies. Having said that, what kind of sound you prefer is a matter of taste, but I personally like rhythm guitar to be wide and enhance the size of the mix as a whole, I can understand why the topic is being studied.
 
Before you know it, you'll have signed up for a four day recording retreat, incorporating primal scream therapy and wilderness walks with your spirit guide.
 
MusicWater said:
You need different frequencies of the same sound source for the sound sources on the side (no extreme settings) and the same frequencies for the sound sources in the center.
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Read this sentence to yourself slowly. As written, it doesn't make any sense.

This is how the brain can separate out what sound sources are wide out in the stereo field and what sound sources are in the center. The density of the side panned instruments ensure the mix does not pump towards the center by allowing more dense sound sources in the center mask those side frequencies.
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Again. Assume you din't know what you were trying to say. Read this back to yourself. It's just a collection of words that don't mean anything strung together the way you have them.


Please let us hear something you've done.
 
MusicWater said:
Did I mention that it helps to record the guitars in stereo and use different signal chains on L and R, then hard pan and compress with enough density and when necessary further shift the frequencies with the EQ on each speaker? You also need the right attack time on those compressors to give those guitars enough bite. When you add the density, increase the threshold, ratio and release time to make it as thick as possible until you notice the rhythm starts taking a hit, then back off from that region towards balance. Also use the EQ to create the desired depth. (when necessary, in conjunction with shelving or high passing the vocals)
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Ahhhhhhh......huh?

MusicWater said:
You need different frequencies of the same sound source for the sound sources on the side (no extreme settings) and the same frequencies for the sound sources in the center. This is how the brain can separate out what sound sources are wide out in the stereo field and what sound sources are in the center. The density of the side panned instruments ensure the mix does not pump towards the center by allowing more dense sound sources in the center mask those side frequencies.
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Mmmmmmm.......what?

This is like scrabble...where people make up strange words, and you have to challenge them. :D
Honestly.....you're kinda talking about audio related things...but the manner in which you string words together in your sentences, is really unusual....and not the usual audio lingo.
It's as though you've made up your own way of talking about audio stuff that the rest of the world talks about in a different way....or your coming up with your own phrases and ways of looking at it, and then that's how you're describing it.

Also....you use very generic, vague descriptions. You might as well say stuff like, "turn the knobs until it's wide, and then you'll know it's wide enough"...perfectly accurate, but totally useless, confusing info.

Look....no one is trying to just slam you on this. Trust me, most of the guys here, and especially in this thread, have been around the audio block enough times and know the lingo....and yet, NO ONE is able to understand you.
You think maybe it's you and how you're saying stuff...? ;)
 
I was joking about the Sonic Max. I've played with the demo ADT from waves & it seems cool but a) I can't afford it & b) more importantly, (but possibly sophistry based), I don't need it for what I do. The PSP Vintage Warmer or a combination of free VSTs for the 'tape" effects is as far as I need to go - though not often.
I wonder how the Guru would go with 4 track tape and no access to side bars, navigation panes and multi tounge depressors.
As has been requested Music Water, (Eldnah?), PLEASE post before & after examples of your definitive processing to achieve what the OP set out to do.
If it does as you describe then the much sort after Ah Ha moment will arrive, you veracity will be confirmed and your status as Not Hooroo Guru will be cemented.
Anything else is words and words are all I have to...well you know the rest.
Remember that a common vocabulary (as in commmonly uderstood meanings for sounds &/or letter groupings),syntax and context are your best friends when communicating an idea without physical examples.
 
It's not so much about who is guru or who is not. It's more about whether you offer your own experiences as help to OP or not. I have shared extremely valuable stuff in this thread, whether you discover its value is really up to you. But I honestly think that some of what I've shared is too difficult for a beginner to just jump at, but for OP it's a good thing.
 
MusicWater said:
It's not so much about who is guru or who is not. It's more about whether you offer your own experiences as help to OP or not. I have shared extremely valuable stuff in this thread, whether you discover its value is really up to you. But I honestly think that some of what I've shared is too difficult for a beginner to just jump at, but for OP it's a good thing.
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You really should quote whom you are responding to man. It just makes it more cohesive for understanding the conversation.

You may have given good advice but if it is given in a way that is hard for anyone to understand, then it is not 'extremely valuable stuff'.

Please do not take offense to the comments about your recommendations. We all would just like to be able to understand what advice you are offering.

And as it has been stated, it is difficult for even a professional to understand what you are talking about. Please just try to word things better. I can kind of get where you were going, but only because I have some experience. Not sure how you think you have benefited the OP or anyone, since you have not actually accurately described anything.

I am just being honest. Not trying to be a dick.
 
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