question for sound engineers

halfred

halfred

New member
To what extent can hiss(more like white noise) be filtered out in mastering process? My NT1A's are dead quiet. My Pulsars with 16db noise level give very slight noise compared to the Rodes. I like the sound of both but may have a preference for the Pulsars not sure yet. I'm hesitant to experiment with other mics, like SP C4's in omni, because of their noise level compared to the Rodes. However if slight noise can be filtered out by a sound engineer without distorting the track, I won't be so concerned with it.:confused:
 
halfred said:
To what extent can hiss(more like white noise) be filtered out in mastering process?
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I would not recommend waiting for or relying on the mastering process to remove any unwanted mic noise.

Find out at the source what is causing this and try to correct or minimize it there.
 
Agreed. Don't use mastering as a crutch for things that should be fixed while mixing, or mixing as a crutch for things that should be fixed while recording.
 
masteringhouse said:
Agreed. Don't use mastering as a crutch for things that should be fixed while mixing, or mixing as a crutch for things that should be fixed while recording.
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And, I might add, don't use recording as a crutch for things that should be fixed in the performance. ;)

But to the point, halfred, The Two Toms are right; waiting until mastering is waiting too long. Some hiss can potentially be taken care of during recording by setting up optimum gain structure throughout the recording chain. Possibly also trying matching up different preamps with the Pulsars that can handle any extra required gain better.

If you're recording to computer, there are some noise reduction utilities that can be used to help remove the hiss. Notably the ones from Sony/Sonic Foundry and Waves are pretty good, and I'd apply those to the individual tracks before mixing. How much they may or may not affect the signal on each track is not predictable; it depends entirely upon the exact nature of the noise and of the signal; sometimes the noise removal can be almost transparent, other times it can artifact the signal something awful; many times it requires some further signal analysis and processing along with the automatic NR to get it right.

Just a note: the term "sound engineer" applies at all three stages; tracking, mixing and mastering. The idea that you can phone in the first two stages and leave it for an "engineer" to fix everything in the final stage is a recipe for disaster. Get in there and start engineering from the get-go! ;)

G.
 
OK thanks Glen and both Toms and, Tom V, we spoke before--nice to know there is someone in the "neighborhood.")

My situation is that I'm trying to make a quality recording operating on the research I've done online the past four months, feedback from the forum, AND operating within my limitations given the complexity of recording, the time I have available, what I can't figure out on my own, budget constraints etc. etc. ect. I'm not trying to shove off work on anyone or looking for a crutch---although I'm pretty sure I need one LOL--
I'm recording piano solos (classical) on a Steinway B in my living room. The piano (and the player) are top notch :D
I've sold my Microtrack 11 to a student of mine and have moved on to a Tascam HD P2 with Oade HD upgrade. I'm using a field recorder because it simplifies the process for me and I need to travel with it to record my student recitals and potential to possibly record on a Steinway D.
So Glen you are saying that the noise from the Pulsars may indicate not the right pramps. There is a list of microphones that Oade Bros. suggests for the Tascam and the Nt1A is on the list as well as SP C4'--and many others. I guess these particular mics work well with the preamps on the unit so it could be that is why the Rodes are so quiet compared to the Pulsars, as opposed to 8db noise vs. 16db noise.
I did download audacity and ran a file through it and tried noise reduction but it distorts the trac,k unless I'm not doing it correctly. It was suggested to me by several engineers whom I talked to online a while back, to record with the peaks between -3 and -6 db, no limiter, and basically no alterations of sound on my part, just send the raw data basically which seems sensible to me since I don't know that much. I'm just trying to get a clean sound with clarity and a certian depth to the tone of the piano which so far I seem to be getting close to with this new recorder and the NT1A's although I still have a lot of experimenting to do with mic postion and I want to try some omni mics (and possibly ribbons) before the verdict is in on which mics I will finally use to make the final recordings.
 
halfred said:
So Glen you are saying that the noise from the Pulsars may indicate not the right pramps...
I'm just trying to get a clean sound with clarity and a certian depth to the tone of the piano which so far I seem to be getting close to with this new recorder and the NT1A's although I still have a lot of experimenting to do with mic postion and I want to try some omni mics (and possibly ribbons) before the verdict is in on which mics I will finally use to make the final recordings.
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I was only giving generic advice with the preamp thing. I am not intimately familiar with the preamp specs on that particular Tascam unit nor with the Pulsar mics, so I can't say with any certainty whether that is a specific factor in your situation or not. I can only give you some general knowledge which you can apply as needed here:

It could simply be the Pulsars are noisy mics, I don't know. Or it could be that they require more gain from the preamp than your preamps can give before hey get noisy. Do you find yourself having to crank the input gain on the Tascam in order to get a reasonable volume out of the Pulsars? If so, that might possibly be an indication that you have to push those pres a bit much to the point where you're introducing some extra preamp noise into the signal.

Sometimes looking at the numbers can be of help. One way to check this is by looking at the output specification for the microphone and the maximum gain specification for the preamp. If by adding the latter to the former we get a sum that falls below +4dBu, that may be an indicator that the preamp just does not have enough amp for that mic.

You mention ribbon mics. While they can be excellent for recording piano, they usually do have a rather low maximum output voltage and require preamps with a lot of gain to get good clean levels; often on the order of over 70dB of gain.

Also, checking the impedance specs on the mic and preamp can help. Typically you'll want a lower-Z mic connected to a higher-Z preamp. While not a hard-and-fast rule, in general most folks would like the input impedance on the preamp to be somewhere on the order of 5x to 10x the output impedance on the microphone. The lower the impedance difference, the least boost you're likely to get out of the preamp and the harder it may need to be cranked to get good levels.

Again, YMMV; apply to your specific gear only as applicable.

Also, check into some nice small-diameter condensors (SDCs) while you're looking at other mics. Miking close over the strings in a stereo pair down the strings from the hammers (to taste) with a pair of quality SDCs can give you a sweet sound without the bank-busting prices of most riibbons.

G.
 
halfred said:
I'm recording piano solos (classical) on a Steinway B in my living room. The piano (and the player) are top notch :D
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It would be cool if you could post some of this stuff to the MP3 Clinic. I'd love to hear it.

thanks,
 
halfred -

If I may, I suggest that you speak with recording engineer somewhat in the "neighborhood" regarding piano recording. His name is Kent Heckman at Redrock recording see:

http://www.redrockrecording.com/

He has a ton of experience recording acoustic music in general and all of the projects that he sends my way sound fantastic. He has a great mic and preamp selection (see equipment list) and I'm sure can give you some great advice on mic and preamp choice. It would also be well worth a trip, he makes a great pizza.

Best,
Tom
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
I was only giving generic advice with the preamp thing. I am not intimately familiar with the preamp specs on that particular Tascam unit nor with the Pulsar mics, so I can't say with any certainty whether that is a specific factor in your situation or not. I can only give you some general knowledge which you can apply as needed here:

It could simply be the Pulsars are noisy mics, I don't know. Or it could be that they require more gain from the preamp than your preamps can give before hey get noisy. Do you find yourself having to crank the input gain on the Tascam in order to get a reasonable volume out of the Pulsars? If so, that might possibly be an indication that you have to push those pres a bit much to the point where you're introducing some extra preamp noise into the signal.

Sometimes looking at the numbers can be of help. One way to check this is by looking at the output specification for the microphone and the maximum gain specification for the preamp. If by adding the latter to the former we get a sum that falls below +4dBu, that may be an indicator that the preamp just does not have enough amp for that mic.

You mention ribbon mics. While they can be excellent for recording piano, they usually do have a rather low maximum output voltage and require preamps with a lot of gain to get good clean levels; often on the order of over 70dB of gain.

Also, checking the impedance specs on the mic and preamp can help. Typically you'll want a lower-Z mic connected to a higher-Z preamp. While not a hard-and-fast rule, in general most folks would like the input impedance on the preamp to be somewhere on the order of 5x to 10x the output impedance on the microphone. The lower the impedance difference, the least boost you're likely to get out of the preamp and the harder it may need to be cranked to get good levels.

Again, YMMV; apply to your specific gear only as applicable.

Also, check into some nice small-diameter condensors (SDCs) while you're looking at other mics. Miking close over the strings in a stereo pair down the strings from the hammers (to taste) with a pair of quality SDCs can give you a sweet sound without the bank-busting prices of most riibbons.

G.
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Thanks Glen. I'll try using that formula. output spec to gain spec--good to know. I checked with Doug Oade last week and he checked the specs of the ribbons I'm interested and said they'll work fine. The upgraded Tascam has a lot of gain. The NT1A's at fiftten feet from the piano--gain only cranked up little over half way to peak at -3db. Turns out the NT1A's are too sensitive for my purpose. They pick up the mechanical noises from inside the piano from 15 feet away! Don't want mechanical noises in thee recording. Also turns out that the Pulsars are just about perfect. Recorded in NOS only about 5 or 6 feet from bend of piano, Lid fully open, and no damper noise (bumps)--guess medium Diaphrams are less sensitive to that. And the sound is broad like with the Rodes, but has a bit more detail--it's actually awesome!! They are quieter now for some reason. Only thing I can think of is last recording I made with them they were a lot closer to each othe. But now the noise is very minimal. Don't think I'd like SDC's except maybe in omni. If I can sell the matched pair of NT1A's, I'll order a pair of c4's to try them out, all though I'm pretty thrilled with the performance of the Pulsars at this point (and this new Tascam unit.) Here is a description of the up[grade in case you are interested (curious.)

"The HDP2 High Definition Upgrade rebuilds the analog signal path of the stock HD-P2 using very high slew rate op amps with ultra low THD. This upgrade reduces analog signal path distortion to the A/D chip and removes the limits imposed by the lower grade stock signal path chips. This significantly improves clarity and detail as well as size and depth of soundstage. "
 
Chili said:
It would be cool if you could post some of this stuff to the MP3 Clinic. I'd love to hear it.

thanks,
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Yes Chili I definitely will as soon as I've decided on which mic and postion etc. Also the piano will be voiced tuned and regulated at end of the month. I'd like to post an mp3 and get some feedback. I've been talking about this damn project, asking questions pretty incessantly on this forum for the last two months!
 
masteringhouse said:
halfred -

If I may, I suggest that you speak with recording engineer somewhat in the "neighborhood" regarding piano recording. His name is Kent Heckman at Redrock recording see:

http://www.redrockrecording.com/

He has a ton of experience recording acoustic music in general and all of the projects that he sends my way sound fantastic. He has a great mic and preamp selection (see equipment list) and I'm sure can give you some great advice on mic and preamp choice. It would also be well worth a trip, he makes a great pizza.

Best,
Tom
Click to expand...

ThanksTom I'll look into that. Is the Pizza REALLY good??
 
halfred said:
ThanksTom I'll look into that. Is the Pizza REALLY good??
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Homegrown ingredients baked in his brick oven. Some of the best that I've ever had, and believe me I've had nearly as much pizza as the Ramones.

2004_05_20_Ramones04-thumb.jpg
 
masteringhouse said:
Homegrown ingredients baked in his brick oven. Some of the best that I've ever had, and believe me I've had nearly as much pizza as the Ramones.

2004_05_20_Ramones04-thumb.jpg
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Is that a pic from their somewhat cheesy movie? Can't remember the name, but allthough the quality was debatable, it loved it! Great music too.:D

Anyway, looking forward to hearing that piano of yours! I've only played the virtual one in my computer, yet. :cool:
 
mnordbye said:
Is that a pic from their somewhat cheesy movie? Can't remember the name, but allthough the quality was debatable, it loved it! Great music too.:D
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Cheesy and pepperoni. Yep Rock and Roll High School!

When I saw the Ramones play a small venue in Philly a long time ago someone from Dominos Pizza walked in and went backstage with a full load. Had to laugh ...
 
halfred said:
Yeah I'm picky about pizza---sounds like you know your stuff!!
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Hello!?!?! Chicago here!!

You Phillies may know how to pour Velveeta, but leave the pizza-making to the pros from Second City. And no, that doesn't mean it has to be deep dish; the only ones who still eat deep dish around here are the tourists from the East Coast. ;) :D

(j/k; I couldn't help it, I had to pull a Kanye there. :p.)

G.
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
Hello!?!?! Chicago here!!

You Phillies may know how to pour Velveeta, but leave the pizza-making to the pros from Second City. And no, that doesn't mean it has to be deep dish; the only ones who still eat deep dish around here are the tourists from the East Coast. ;) :D

(j/k; I couldn't help it, I had to pull a Kanye there. :p.)

G.
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Good Pizza in the Midwest? Impossible. I live in an Italian neighborhood with a Pizza shop on every other corner and none of them are good. What has the world come to! So frustrating.
 
masteringhouse said:
Halfred,

A little on the sweeter side, but have you tried Tomato Pie from Norristown?

See: http://lickmyspoon.com/recipes/tomato-pie-ode-to-corropolese/

Philly may use Velveeta on cheesteaks, but doesn't Chicago use ketchup for pizza sauce? :)
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No, has to have cheese the right kind and amount.
Yeah in Chicago they probably have signs that say "Authentic I-TALIAN Pizza." After all they did invent that deep dish stuff that tastes like cake with cheese and tomato sauce on top. It's so "madigan!"
 
masteringhouse said:
Philly may use Velveeta on cheesteaks, but doesn't Chicago use ketchup for pizza sauce? :)
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Are you insane? We don't even put ketchup on out hot dogs, let alone out pizza. :eek: :D.

At least we put sauce on our pizzas. I don't know how it is in Philly, but there seems to be a horrendous trend across this country to turn pizza into cheese flatbread.

Just head out to Colorado, guys; their sauce tastes more like barbecue sauce than it does pizza sauce :rolleyes:.

And, BTW, Chicago is about as Midwest as NYC is New England. It's hilarious, I get only 50 miles out of the city and the real midwesterners can identify me by my city accent, when it's really *they* that have the accent ;) :p. Of course that's south. Go north into cheezeland and it's all "Ya Hey Dere". :)

G.
 
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