Question about various home recording programs

[noisedude]

You really love to talk about this don't you?

Well, let's think about this for a second. His business costs are driven higher because software companies jack up prices to cover their losses against increased piracy ... yeah, I can see why he might want to talk about it.

It's exactly the same thing for downloading music. Today there's a massive amount of bands that wouldn't have never seen the light of day without music piracy. People can't buy everything. If piracy wouldn't exist those bands could never make money out of concerts, t-shirt and all derived products. We live in a world of over consumption.

You're veering between two or three entirely disconnected points here. But let's get one thing straight - the ONLY bands whose music is pirated via P2P etc on the net are the ones who ARE ALREADY FAMOUS enough for people to have heard of them and who decide to steal their music rather than pay.

If it weren't for Soundclick, Download.com, Nowhere Radio and so on, many bands would never see the light of day. But that's not illegal ... I don't see people getting banged up for pirating unknown bands' music!!!

 

[CarcPazu]

Well, let's think about this for a second. His business costs are driven higher because software companies jack up prices to cover their losses against increased piracy ... yeah, I can see why he might want to talk about it.

You really think companies jack up prices because of piracy?
It's like saying prices of cars are expensive because of theives.
If he's the pro he's claiming he is, he's using high-end softwares. And high-end softwares uses dongle keys wich are very difficult to crack or the end result is an unstable softwares, or they use related hardware that is needed to use the softwares in question (ie: ProTools). If software couldn't be cracked, do you really think everyone would buy it? I seriously doubt your exemple apply over here.
And is it justify to accuse, or assume everyone over here is a crackhead? I don't think so.
Losses against increased piracy... give me a break, piracy is a part of the softwares world since the beginning. You cannot count on people's good will to end piracy. It's can't be stopped. Hackers will always find a way. So it's pointless to debate it until the law is fully enforced in some way, wich is close to impossible to control. I guess he's just pissed off about the idea that young kids without any budget could just learn the cracked softwares and get better than him and then steal some business out of him, something I admit he can be scared of.

You're veering between two or three entirely disconnected points here. But let's get one thing straight - the ONLY bands whose music is pirated via P2P etc on the net are the ones who ARE ALREADY FAMOUS enough for people to have heard of them and who decide to steal their music rather than pay.

If it weren't for Soundclick, Download.com, Nowhere Radio and so on, many bands would never see the light of day. But that's not illegal ... I don't see people getting banged up for pirating unknown bands' music!!!

When you say : "The ONLY bands whose music is pirated are the ones who ARE ALREADY FAMOUS", here's an other one that lives under a rock. You say this because the only ones who nag about it publicly are famous. The news would never publish any statements from an unknown band complaining that his music is being pirated, that wouldn't be interesting for the public. And also, the artists nag about it because the label tell them to do it. The labels didn't saw music piracy coming. They were very late to find a solutions. They were at war without even knowing it, when they realized they lost it, they started running in all directions like headless chickens.

I buy CDs because I like to own it and encourage the bands I like, but it's a choice. I bought a lot of albums thinking it would be great and in the end it was crap, for me, mp3's are now there to preview something before I buy. I know some people don't think that way, it's sad, but it's mainly the label that get ripped since the artists don't make much money out the albums, once again they make it out of the derived products.

And when you say ONLY the famous ones get pirated, take a look in forums in the underground market, you'll see even small bands get pirated. Not just because you don't hear about it publicly, that it isn't there. But unlike big stars, most small bands are pretty happy that their music is being spread. Then when they do concerts, there's an audiance.

Anyway, don't get me wrong, I see your points about all this. I just don't think here is an appropriate place to point fingers at crackheads. As I saw, anyone who ask question can be accused of piracy. It's just silly.

 

[gordone]

Oh, the old "It's not stealing cause I won't get caught argument"
The human race is definitely going down the tubes...

Stealing a physical objet in a store is a lot more risk. If they catch you on the spot, you will be procecuted.
Downloading on the net is (for now) almost anonymous and almost impossible to enforce at large scale. Sometimes some get pinched but it's mainly to make exemples to scare people out. And I hope it work!

 

[CarcPazu]

Oh, the old "It's not stealing cause I won't get caught argument"

As I see you only understand what you want. I'm talking about the level of risk. You can't agree that the level of risk isn't the same?
It would be an argument if I was in favor of piracy, wich I'm not, it's an explanation to a very realistic situation. Software developers are doing business in a world of theft, and yet they cry when their softwares are being pirated... how ironic.

The human race is definitely going down the tubes...

ahaha, That I have to agree with you, we live in a fucked up world. :-(

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

There are some scary-ass posts in this thread..... if many people think the way carcPazu and stabz seem to, we are headed for a real fucked-up society as these jokers become the next leaders...............

For the first time ever, I'm wishing I was born about 30 years earlier than I was...........

 

[Cloneboy Studio]

What is funny is how many people supplant morality for self-interest.

Heck, you could define modern culture the same way.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I'm with you, Bruce. I know we probably sound like a couple of old Depression-era, WWII veterans complaining out our own generation, but Christ; it's not until the past 10 years of so where punks actually ADVOCATE THEFT as being acceptable behavior.

And we wonder why buildings still get flown into and wars still get started and people still get killed for no good reason. It's because we are no more advanced now than we were two thousand years ago; we have a generation of Caligulas coming up.

That's why I have music as one of my refuges. So f*ck this thread, I'm grabbing my fiddle and naming some CD burner software after myself...

G.

 

[David Katauskas]

Well, both CarcPazu and Stabz have lost all credibility with me (not that it means much ). And I presume with many other members.

However, it makes me wonder...both of these members have extremely absurd beliefs. Perhaps trolls baiting controversy? Probably.

If not, then yes...it is sad because absurdity breeds more absurdity. We will eventually live in a world of shitbags.

 

[Massive Master]

As far as I can remember, this is one of the first threads I ever really "got into" this type of discussion...

But as long as he's asking, yes - My "main" software is Samplitude (with a pretty blue dongle) and my main plugs are UAD (an entire PCI card). I certainly don't consider myself "boasting" about it (as was presented earlier somewhere). I worked my ass off for years to build MM to where I've got it now. WORKED... I didn't go out and steal equipment, or steal advertising, or utilize ethically questionable techniques to get clients.

And my use of software is so limited it "almost" wouldn't matter... I could probably get 99% of the same results with freeware.

But as far as the "this isn't the place to discuss this" - What is? The "I Use Stolen Warez and Want Someone to Call Me On It" forum?

My point is simple - If you're stealing the software, you're on your own. Don't come to a respectable public forum asking for help. People here are WORKING HARD to learn their crafts. "Home" recording - "Pro" recording - It doesn't make a difference. It's a slap in the face to all of them.

 

[fraserhutch]

You really think companies jack up prices because of piracy?

I can tell you with no hesitation that indeed, yes they do.

Software companies go to a lot of expense to try to countact piracy. In fact, I have been paid very good money to design and implement such systems for content developers, and I can attest to thefact that it represents a growing industry. Do you think dongles are free? Do you think this software grows in fields to be harvested?

And you still don't think those costs get factored into the prices for software?

Puleeze.

Anyone who contends that piracy does not affect the cost of goods is severely deluded.

When you steal a car, the costs get passed along to us in the form of higher insurance premiums.

Wen you shoplift, the costs are passed long in the price of goods.

When you pirqate softeware, the costs get passed along in the price of the software as the direct result of implementing countermeasures.

 

[fraserhutch]

If not, then yes...it is sad because absurdity breeds more absurdity. We will eventually live in a world of shitbags.

Sometimes I despair that we're halfway there already.......

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

When you pirqate softeware, the costs get passed along in the price of the software as the direct result of implementing countermeasures.

And, Stabz & Co., it's not just that, but theft costs the companies signifigantly in lost revenue. They have to make up that revenue, not just because they are faceless profit mongers. In some Enron-ish kinds of cases that might be true, but tha's not what we're talking about here, We are talking about legitimate businesses with *responsibilities* (a term most theives aren't too familiar with); not only to the CEOs, but to the people who the employ, to the banks to which they owe money, to the stockholders, etc.

Companys work on a business plan. This is how they get the money from banks, venture capitalists and stockholders to operate, to stay in business. The revenues they get from sales pay to support that business plan. If 20% of their customer base is lost because teenage crackers with no life are distributing free, cracked, *illegal* copies of their software to otherwise potential customers, that throws the whole business plan out of whack, lowering their ratings with the banks, credit agencies and stockholders...not to mention threating things like employee health insurance plans and even payrolls. It seriously threatens their very business. If they go out of business or decide that the market is too volitile and risky because of theft, they will no longer make the software titles that you cherish so much that you want to steal them. Then where would your "creativity" go?

And for those who say "the crackers will always be out there, they can't be stopped, so why not just go with it?", I have two replies: 1.) That sounds an awful lot like the "fellah" last week on this board who used the quote, "Don't hate the players, hate the game." I have news for you, if it weren't for the *players*, there would be no game. The players ARE the game. There is a way to stop crackers; stop accepting their stuff. Unfortunately there will always be those who accept their stuff, because they *just don't get* reply #2...2) Because it's more profitable in the long run to care about the difference between right and wrong.

Do unto others...

G.

 

[Cloneboy Studio]

Makes me wonder how loud these pirates would scream if they ever had an idea good enough to make into a product and they found out they are a couple million short because of theft.

I guarantee you'd see some major double standards popping up in their opinion about conducting business.

 

[noisedude]

What is funny is how many people supplant morality for self-interest.

This is the first time in ages I can remember totally agreeing with you.

Makes me wonder how loud these pirates would scream if they ever had an idea good enough to make into a product and they found out they are a couple million short because of theft.

And this is the second!!!!

Good posts, dude.

 

[CarcPazu]

Well, both CarcPazu and Stabz have lost all credibility with me (not that it means much ). And I presume with many other members.

However, it makes me wonder...both of these members have extremely absurd beliefs. Perhaps trolls baiting controversy? Probably.

If not, then yes...it is sad because absurdity breeds more absurdity. We will eventually live in a world of shitbags.

As if I'm running for presidency... look if I give damn about what you (or others) think of me.

You guys can say you don't agree with some stuff I said, but if you look carefully (wich I don't think you did) there's some stuff in what I said that makes real sense. And I many times said that I don't agree with stealing software, doesn't mean it's about to end.

And my "main" point was to say that pointing fingers at presumed crack users is pointless over here since it's not the main purpose of this forum. Or else, it would never end, everyone who's asking a questions will be a potential theft (even the innocents) and no one will come over here.

Don't agree with me if you want. I don't care. I know you guys will start the same shit in an other thread "you thief, you bastard, we won't help you cuz we suspect you're using pirated softwares".

If you people spent as much time helping as you spent arguing over here. It would be much better place to hang-out.

I posted something I've done and only 3 person replied, it tells me you people prefer to argu than help.

Can we now talk about something else?

 

[andyhix]

For what it's worth, this argument IS a good read and IS beneficial. I've never stolen software, because I'm a lowly 4 tk cassetter, but if you woulda asked me a year or two ago about it, I coulda cared less one way or another.

Now, partly due to reads like this, I've come around. If I upgrade to PC recording, I'll save up and buy the shit. Just like I did to buy my guitar, and my cables, and my 4 track, and everything else.

So at least with this topic, the discussion (and previous similar posts) has helped me sort out the morally right position from that of the thieves desperately trying to justify their ways.

 

[scrubs]

You guys can say you don't agree with some stuff I said, but if you look carefully (wich I don't think you did) there's some stuff in what I said that makes real sense. And I many times said that I don't agree with stealing software, doesn't mean it's about to end.

I have yet to read any convincing argument in this thread, or any other, that justifies software piracy. Your arguments that "everyone else does it" and that "I won't get caught anyway" are about the weakest arguments yet. Stealing is about principle. You should choose to do, or not do, something based on your own priciples and beliefs. Your decision should not be based on the likelihood of being caught or even whether the act is legal/illegal. You do it because it's the right thing to do. If you actually offer up a valid argument for your position, maybe someone would consider it.

And my "main" point was to say that pointing fingers at presumed crack users is pointless over here since it's not the main purpose of this forum.

My understanding of the purpose of this forum is to discuss matters related to home recording. As most home recording is digital these days, issues related to software are very relevant. If you'd like to explain to the rest of us what the real purpose of the board is, I'm listening.

I posted something I've done and only 3 person replied, it tells me you people prefer to argu than help.

Well, now that you've professed your use of cracked software, expect even less response.

I don't see this as arguing. I see it as a discussion. While I am frustrated by those who choose to use illegal software, ultimately it is their decision. I don't regulate morality. I am only stating my opinions. If folks choose not to support piracy by not helping people who publicly profess their use of such software, that is a perfectly acceptable position to take, imo.

 

[the edzell]

I don’t know if people have changed that much. If you think about it music theft has always been around. Though it’s not on the grand scale and same scrutiny as it is today.

Back in the 80’s my friends and I were always making tapes for each other. It was common practice that if there were two albums we wanted and we each could only afford one, each would by an album and a blank cassette and then we’d go back and dub off a copy for each other. We never considered it stealing music.

Of course the music industry frowned upon this and tried to get the government to pass a special tax on recordable media (blank cassettes) saying it was killing the industry. Now of course it didn’t seem to hurt as bad. And it was difficult to say how many dubs were being made from each copy sold and for what uses. (If a CD was being dubbed for a customer to listen to on their car stereo vs. dubbing a copy for a friend)

Now anyone can get a copy of a song from anyone if they know where to find it. And the record companies know how many copies are being made. Like any industry they’re going to do their best to make sure their getting paid for every piece of product.

The problem is music (like other media) is a not a corporal product and needs a physical carrier (sheet music, radio, CD) to be used. For some reason people believe if you can’t hold it in your hand, then it isn’t stealing. Software is the same thing. You can’t hold a DAW in your hand (without a disk, box or computer) so for the same reason some people can justify using cracked software.

Also people believe that since this product was offered to me by someone who bought it, then it isn’t stealing. Same as if you went to McDonald’s and offered someone half your fries. However you don’t share a coke just because you get unlimited refills. It’s the same thought that has to be applied. Just because a product can be copied by the owner doesn’t mean it should be.

The sad fact is that no matter the times people could always justify stealing. It doesn’t matter if it is a physical product or not.

Personally Hollywood isn’t helping the situation when musicians cry about how much money their losing while their showing off their multimillion dollar homes on MTV Cribs. Or when Ben Affleck cries for all the behind the scenes people in Hollywood when Hollywood itself ships most of its jobs to Vancouver to make Gili or Jersey Girl.

There has to be an understanding between corporate America and the consumer. As soon as we quit stealing, you have to lower your prices. Which considering most new releases at Best Buy are under $12.00, how much lower do you want them to go? 99 cents for a song on most music services? You pay more for your drink when you go out to eat. And really less than $100 bucks for a DAW? Could you buy a solid 4 track for that much 10 years ago that offers everything Cubase LE does?

However there are a lot of music swappers out there who think the industry is sowing what they reaped in the late 80’s early 90’s when the industry jacked up the prices of CD’s. Then again America has always been about supply and demand, so maybe the consumer should have taken responsibility for rushing out to buy another copy of “The White Album” for $18.99.

If you don’t like the prices on DAWs don’t buy them. As with the VCR, DVD, HDTVs and other technology as it becomes more affordable to mass produce and with more competition from other companies the prices will go down. But stealing isn’t going to make you a Robin Hood or help your cause. It’s only going to justify charging the high prices the rest of us have to pay.