question about tracking too hot......

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Well first of all you don't want 2 record your tracks 2 low. U want 2 find that happy medium. I like for my tracks 2 come in around -10db considering the instramentals that we get in the studio come in hot so instead of turning everything else up, I turn the instramental down. And once I'm done mixing then I will turn the master fader up 2 the desired level. I have a firm belief in the least amount of processing that I have 2 do then I don't have 2 worry about any sound quality loss. I have noticed that if u have 2 apply certain effects/gains/normalization then it actually can deteriate the sound some.
 
Having a hard time getting my song writting partner to understand why things need to be mastered. His train of thought is that if it sounds good, then that's all there is to it. Anybody have any idea how to go about explaining what mastering does, and why it's needed?
 
I have a bit more to offer. Below are FFT screen caps showing the THD and IMD and spectral noise of an original Wave file, a copy played out and back in through my Delta 66 sound card, and again out and in through my $25 SoundBlaster X-Fi sound card. I generated the source file in Sound Forge, so I imagine it's as clean as a digital source can be. I created four frequencies in a row, each five seconds long, so the source file and the recorded copies are all 20 seconds long:

20 Hz
1 KHz
10 KHz
19 + 20 KHz

The record level meters said -1 for both sound cards for all frequencies. The FFT settings are as follows:

FFT Size 65,536
FFT Overlap 99%
Smoothing Window Hamming

It's clear the SB card has much higher distortion than the Delta 66, but with A-weighting I'll (wildly guess) that the artifacts are still below 0.1 percent or even lower. Maybe one of the FFT experts here can do a better estimate of the audibility versus frequency of the artifacts.

Clearly the Delta 66 is extremely clean even when recorded at -1 dB. This proves beyond all doubt that the sound is not compromised when recording at higher levels, but rather is a very accurate reproduction of the source.

--Ethan

sound_card_distortion.gif
 
The question is not whether one can record clean at any given digital level or not - that was all agreed upon and settled way back on page 1 or 2 of this idiotic thread. The question is why would one *want* to? It's not whether recording hot digitally is technically wrong, it's whether it strategically sensible.

G.
 
The question is not whether one can record clean at any given digital level or not - that was all agreed upon and settled way back on page 1 or 2 of this idiotic thread. The question is why would one *want* to? It's not whether recording hot digitally is technically wrong, it's whether it strategically sensible.

G.

I would think that tracking as hot as possible without distortion would result in the highest resolution, I.E. the greatest number of bits of program information in each digital sample.

DJ
 
Ethan,

Have you checked to see if your Delta 66 is adding some sort of DC or some sort of LF component to the signal? There is a noticable low frequency component that's added to both the 1k and 19+ signal. Sure it shows around -97db or so, but it's something I'd be concerned about.

In any case, simple wave tests don't always show the complete picture. It's kind of like analyzing a star's chemical and physical composition and attributes, by examining it in only visible light wavelengths :D
 
I would think that tracking as hot as possible without distortion would result in the highest resolution, I.E. the greatest number of bits of program information in each digital sample.

DJ
Go back and read all the posts in this, as Glen puts it, idiotic thread, and then come back and post what you think :) You might learn things that you hadn't thought of.
 
The question is not whether one can record clean at any given digital level or not - that was all agreed upon and settled way back on page 1 or 2 of this idiotic thread. The question is why would one *want* to? It's not whether recording hot digitally is technically wrong, it's whether it strategically sensible.

G.

ah, but see, massive master's article claimed that the audio would sound better if it was recorded lower than trying to max out the bits.

Ethan, Did you ever try doing this and running it through some preamps to see if the preamps distorted more at these higher levels?

At first I didn't understand why anything would sound better at lower volumes, then I started to get it. Now I'm to the point where I think it's just a load of crapola and that your music will sound the same whether it's tracked hot or not.

I haven't seen any reason why it would be strategically better or worse. At least I feel now that I can go on with the rest of my life knowing that it doesn't matter at all.
 
Strategically it's most certainly a FAR better idea. It's a non-argumental obviosity (if either of those are actually valid words). Unless you find it more convenient turning every single track down 10 or 15dB so you can mix...

It's much more "strategic" to track somewhere around where the track is going to sit in the mix -- and I, along with the dozens upon dozens upon dozens upon dozens of people who now do the same will go to the end swearing up and down that it sounds anywhere between "A little more open" (on the higher-end chains) to "Holy sh*t, that sounds so much better I can't stand it" (on the more typical chains).

But then again, we get to "that's how the system is designed to work" --

And with all due respect to Ethan (and I mean that) there's a gigantic difference in a simple sine wave vs. a timbrally complex signal like a human voice, a piano, a guitar, keyboard, etc. Especially when you stack a couple dozen of those sources together.

I'm not trying to beat this like a dead horse, but this is something I deal with literally on an almost daily basis. I research this (anecdotally - I'll admit that) constantly. With me, there is no argument. With others, maybe there is (it's usually gone if they track using normal levels once or twice).

It's not like I don't still record occasionally - I track a couple dozen (usually classical) recordings a year. If I thought for the tiniest moment that getting the signal "up there" was actually beneficial against keeping the absolute peaks in the -12dBFS-ish range (I typically set the level to around -15dBFS when I tell the timpanist to "hit it like a man" during sound check and it never gets that loud again), I'd do it. I've tracked classical "up there" also (usually by accident) - And it sounded pinched and unfocused during the louder passages (just as I'd expect it to). If the end listener would notice, I don't know. *I* notice. When I'm tracking, it's all about me. :)


But I'm sure there's one thing we can all agree on - SoundBlaster is a most appropriately named line of audio devices. :D
 
I would think that tracking as hot as possible without distortion would result in the highest resolution, I.E. the greatest number of bits of program information in each digital sample.
There is no change in "resolution". An analog signal of 60dB of dynamic range will take 11 bits to fully accurately represent in digital regardless of whether those bits range from 0 to -60dBFS or from -20 to -80dBFS. There is*no* change in accuracy or resolution.
ah, but see, massive master's article claimed that the audio would sound better if it was recorded lower than trying to max out the bits.
That's because you keep thinking about this as a technical matter instead of a workflow matter, because you're talking about tactics instead of strategy, arguing the trees instead of the woods.

It's not a question of whether for technical reasons one should record on the digital palate at one level or another, it's a question of *why* do you choose that level?

Technically, it make no difference which bit registers you use. But you still need to choose which ones. So you need to look beyond just the technical specs.

Which way does it make more sense? Does it make more sense to turn everything up to record everything hot just to have to turn it back down again later? Or does it make more sense to just let the signal flow at nominal levels and let the engineer concentrate on other things than signal management? Assuming that technically it doesn't matter, given the choice, which makes mor sense?

Does it make more sense to, based upon a handful of sterile lab tests that bear little resemblance to real life, ignore a hundred years of audio engineering experience and it's *learned through experience* tenants of gaming the analog gain structure, or to view those tests as interestingm but not enough alone to describe the real situation in full, because the real life empirical evidence simply does not match the result s of the limited lab tests?

The question is - ignoring the rest of the signal chain for a just moment - given the information that it does not matter on a technical level where on the digital canvas one lays down their recording, then where *should* we lay it down?

The answer "it does not matter" is NOT an answer, it only defines the technical parameters, the lack of envelope to the answer. The question still begs, "what is the plan, here?" Should one plan to record hot, should one plan to record cold, or should one plan to record along the natural path of least engineering management?

We are offering a *plan*, a strategy for setting up the gain structure that follows the plan The Engineers Who Decide These Things had in mind when they designed the standards and the equipment, that requires the least amount of signal management on the part of the operator, a plan that meets the tested technical requirements, and is fully scalable across all signal chains. Agree with it or not, it's a plan that has worked for the pros in analog for decades and for which the technical digital side specs have been designed to accommodate. And it's a plan which the empirical evidence fully supports with a very high success rate and a zero failure rate amongst pros and newbs alike.

You are welcome to trash the plan as you see fit, but then the questions become, "OK, then what is the alterative plan and how is it better?"
Strategically it's most certainly a FAR better idea. It's a non-argumental obviosity
I think I have the name of my next album. :)

That's just it, John, to many it's obvious, because they can focus on a strategic level. There are always folks who can't get past tactics, who can't see the art for which the science is only a foundation, for whom it will never be obvious.

G.
 
Just to side-note Glenn -- I *am* running this as a technical matter -- The fact that it turns to a strategic matter is simply a by-product.

That said - You can approach it from either position and "system works" as it should.
 
The question is - ignoring the rest of the signal chain for a just moment - given the information that it does not matter on a technical level where on the digital canvas one lays down their recording, then where *should* we lay it down?

The answer "it does not matter" is NOT an answer, it only defines the technical parameters, the lack of envelope to the answer. The question still begs, "what is the plan, here?" Should one plan to record hot, should one plan to record cold, or should one plan to record along the natural path of least engineering management?

If you are speaking purely from a strategic standpoint, then I will say that it doesn't matter, but here's why: It doesn't bother me in the least to have to move faders while i'm mixing. Whether I have to turn it up or down by 20dB doesn't make any difference to me. To say it has strategic significance to me is about the same as saying there is strategic significance to standing up while you record guitar because that's how people play on stage. Some people sit down, others stand up. makes not difference as long as the guy playing is comfortable doing it. If it makes you feel more comfortable to not have to turn down faders, then you have the right to feel more comfortable, but doesn't give any strategic advantage other than comfort.

Now, as massive master pointed out, there is a technical advantage. People do all sorts of stuff that is complete rubbish and claim that it is technically better and give no reason other than "because it works better for me." I'm not saying that this concept is rubbish, but I've still not seen any technical reason why it wouldn't be.
 
Have you checked to see if your Delta 66 is adding some sort of DC or some sort of LF component to the signal? There is a noticable low frequency component that's added to both the 1k and 19+ signal. Sure it shows around -97db or so, but it's something I'd be concerned about.

Stuff at -97 dB between 0 and 1 Hz is not a concern. I could probably compute how many microvolts that equates to if you'd like. :D

Seriously, the only problem with DC offset is clicks when splicing waves at zero crossings or, in extreme cases, loss of headroom. My only failing here is I should have cut off the display below 20 Hz. :laughings:

--Ethan
 
Ethan, Did you ever try doing this and running it through some preamps to see if the preamps distorted more at these higher levels?

Nah, I just patched the outs back into the ins and ran the SONAR project. Since the goal was to test the sound cards, it made no sense to introduce other variables.

--Ethan
 
Nah, I just patched the outs back into the ins and ran the SONAR project. Since the goal was to test the sound cards, it made no sense to introduce other variables.

--Ethan

The reason I ask is because, from what I gather, the reason for the lower level tracking argument is because the preamps and other external gear would have less distortion at lower levels than at higher levels. From your tests, I would conclude that the A/D stage is not a contributor to distortion at high levels. How about the mackie preamps? Is their distortion any different at high levels vs low levels before clipping?
 
there's a gigantic difference in a simple sine wave vs. a timbrally complex signal like a human voice, a piano, a guitar, keyboard, etc.

That's why I recorded 10 KHz, and also the 19+20 KHz IM test tones. 20 KHz contains as much "transients" as any snare drum or guitar etc. It's a full-scale signal with the fastest audible rise time you can have.

Especially when you stack a couple dozen of those sources together.

Did you see my AES Audio Myths video? It explains why stacking is a myth. Indeed, if anything, a full mix is more taxing for a converter because it contains more simultaneous frequencies than any single track, increasing the opportunity for IM distortion.

--Ethan
 
How about the mackie preamps? Is their distortion any different at high levels vs low levels before clipping?

I've never tested a Mackie preamp (or any other part of the mixer), but I have no reason to believe it's not perfectly clean right up to the point of hard clipping. I mean, if the analog section of a converter is clean right up to hard clipping, why should a preamp or any other circuit be different? These are very basic circuits, and any device whose distortion creeps up slowly is defective IMO. Indeed, the only audio device I know of that does works like this is analog tape.

--Ethan
 
And with all due respect to Ethan (and I mean that)

Me too, which is what makes threads like this so difficult for me. I have nothing but respect for most of the people I argue with. Really. The same thing is going on now over at Mixerman's The Womb forum, where I'm in the awkward position of having to point out flaws stated by Bob Olhsson. :eek:

--Ethan
 
If you are speaking purely from a strategic standpoint, then I will say that it doesn't matter

I agree. As long as the signal is not so low that you run into the converter's noise or distortion from using too few bits, or so high that it distorts, then having a level anywhere within Glen's appropriately named "60 dB bit range" is fine.

It doesn't bother me in the least to have to move faders while i'm mixing. Whether I have to turn it up or down by 20dB doesn't make any difference to me.

Same here. Mixing is all about adjusting levels. You have to set every track anyway, so how can it possibly matter whether you turn up 10 dB or down 10 dB? Indeed, with analog tape you must record as hot as possible to get above the tape hiss, and then set the mix levels. So to me it's not even a tiny issue for work-flow.

--Ethan
 
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