question about tracking too hot......

[SouthSIDE Glen]

If it makes you feel more comfortable to not have to turn down faders, then you have the right to feel more comfortable, but doesn't give any strategic advantage other than comfort.

As I said, boz, you just don't see it. That doesn't mean it's not there.

But I'm convinced that there's nothing I can do to cause you to see it at this point. Which is OK. We are allowed to disagree.

It just proves the point that this is all a waste of time, and we should just move on.

G.

 

[bozmillar]

As I said, boz, you just don't see it. That doesn't mean it's not there.

I haven't seen any example that can't be solved with moving a fader. what am I not seeing?

 

[Massive Master]

It just proves the point that this is all a waste of time, and we should just move on.

G.

I'm kinda tired of it too. Such a basic and simplistic concept... If this many posts doesn't clear it up, nothing will.

 

[mixsit]

I've never tested a Mackie preamp (or any other part of the mixer), but I have no reason to believe it's not perfectly clean right up to the point of hard clipping. I mean, if the analog section of a converter is clean right up to hard clipping, why should a preamp or any other circuit be different? These are very basic circuits, and any device whose distortion creeps up slowly is defective IMO. Indeed, the only audio device I know of that does works like this is analog tape.

--Ethan

I'm going to toss something in here and straddle the fence in a few ways- a) I'm PartTimer' with admittedly less experience compared to to many here, b) I would have to do 'tracking hot' experiments as I have always been in the 'track and gain staged down at 'nominal' camp.
That out of the way, I have some 'clean pres (Precision 8' for example) that although I can't say I've proved it, would expect to act as you're describing. Also my converters. However I have some Chameleon 7602’s that I have come to realize fairly late in my attitude about recording that definitely do not remain linier in very useful ways. (my old Mackie 2408 by contrast did not.
(When I ‘proposed we get you a ‘7602 I meant that in a very nice way BTW--

I can't help but suspect that part of the arguments and anecdotal evidence folks are giving re; 'lower is a more open canvas' is complicated by some paths that 'remain open', some change in useful and presumably desired ways, and some that change in not so useful nor expected ways.

 

[miroslav]

Such a basic and simplistic concept... If this many posts doesn't clear it up, nothing will.

Sorry John...but you and Glen have been beating on this as though there is some real technical and/or strategic point that the rest of us are just "too dumb to get"...and there have been constant comments implying that you've done your parts to "clear it up" for the rest of us....
...but honestly, as boz and Ethan (and myself and some others) have pointed out...the only thing you are "clearing up" is how YOU guys prefer to work.

From the technical and strategic side...your best arguments have only worked when things like "safe"..."newbies"..."certain SOPS"..."some equipment"...etc...
...have been attached to those arguments.
As boz just pointed out...there is NO strategic argument that applies to all under any situation...and that's kinda what's being argued by Glen, whereas you've done your technical arguing on the premise that "lower=better" as a "global" SOP...where it's really not a global SOP but more so a specific one that might apply only to some things in some situations.
There is a constant implication that all digital “hot” levels = and/or come from “bad” distortion on the analog side…which is NOT the case on a global scale.

We, the "opposition" have agreed to every specialty case and specific SOP/situation...
but we're just not buying all this as some global, "always better" argument.
So yeah, I agree it IS kinda tiring to be talked at from some constant "you don't get it" point of view.

Last night I tossed a mic in front of my amp and set my preamp to *nominal* levels…and I was easily able to hit the red and even clipping on my converters…yet my front end sounded fine.
Why should I turn down my front end just for some -18dBFS target…when -4dBFS sounds perfectly fine.
There was NO improvement in the signal when going to the converter at the lower level…so what is it that we are “not getting”…???
And AFA mixing it all down later on…it’s a 0.03 ms maneuver to adjust a fader….*IF NEEDED*...and sometimes it’s not needed, like for a lot of guys who DON’T sum in the DAW but go back out to an analog mixdown. If the analog signals were good going in individually…why won’t they be good going back out individually…?
Like some have said…that’s why it’s called mixing…

Hey...if somone wants to lock this thread just to keep any more posts from being made...I don't think anyone will really care.
Though like the scene of a bad car accident, I notice ALL the principals in this thread keep coming back for one more look...
...when they can easily stay away and just not reply!!!
No need for any hard feelings here...we're just kicking the can around.

 

[NYMorningstar]

. How about the mackie preamps? Is their distortion any different at high levels vs low levels before clipping?

That would vary with different mics seeing the mics put out different voltages. What's the input voltage of the mackie? What's the output voltage of the mic? Is the maximum input level of the mackie set with the gain set at minimum? Compare and find out where the combo's clip. It's like matching stereo components but less user friendly. You have to convert your volts to pascal. There's a chart somewhere online you can find.

 

[noisewreck]

Stuff at -97 dB between 0 and 1 Hz is not a concern. I could probably compute how many microvolts that equates to if you'd like.

Seriously, the only problem with DC offset is clicks when splicing waves at zero crossings or, in extreme cases, loss of headroom. My only failing here is I should have cut off the display below 20 Hz.

--Ethan

For one track it is small enough where it isn't. However, once you start piling on the tracks, the cumulative effect should be of concern.

 

[NYMorningstar]

Hey...if somone wants to lock this thread just to keep any more posts from being made...I don't think anyone will really care.
Though like the scene of a bad car accident, I notice ALL the principals in this thread keep coming back for one more look...
...when they can easily stay away and just not reply!!!
.

There's nothing wrong with a playground for the boys

 

[Ethan Winer]

For one track it is small enough where it isn't. However, once you start piling on the tracks, the cumulative effect should be of concern.

Give this man a ceegar for identifying the one place where "stacking" actually occurs!

Then again, at -97 I believe we're still talking microvolts.

--Ethan

 

[noisewreck]

Give this man a ceegar for identifying the one place where "stacking" actually occurs!

Then again, at -97 I believe we're still talking microvolts.

--Ethan

Meh, I don't do cigars. They stink I'll take a nice bottle of Cognac though

 

[bozmillar]

Meh, I don't do cigars. They stink

I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with you on this point. You say they stink, but you show no evidence that they do. Do they stink, or do you just think they stink?

 

[Ethan Winer]

I have a bit more to offer. Below are FFT screen caps showing the THD and IMD and spectral noise of an original Wave file, a copy played out and back in through my Delta 66 sound card, and again out and in through my $25 SoundBlaster X-Fi sound card.

I have a big "oops" to report. When I did those sound card distortion tests in SONAR, I accidentally had the MIDI metronome playing a hi-hat through the SoundBlaster card. D'oh! So that explains the surprisingly high level of HF noise. The new graph below shows the correct results. Yes, it's still not as clean as the Delta 66, but it's infinitely better than what I showed. Sorry for any confusion, and hopefully this exonerates my SB card to everyone's satisfaction.

--Ethan

 

[NYMorningstar]

Nice catch Ethan. You probably know this better than anyone...What's an average studio have as background noise? Would that mask the distortion from a soundblaster card using a properly set up front end gain structure?

 

[Ethan Winer]

What's an average studio have as background noise?

Believe me, I've made that point many times when people claim they can hear stuff like dither and jitter that's 90+ dB below the music. Put up a microphone and set a level suitable for acoustic guitar from a foot or two away. Then record a few seconds of room tone, play it back and note the play level meter. Oh, it's -50 or maybe -60?

--Ethan