Ethan Winer
Acoustics Expert
Excellent question and I agree. I don't think using all the bits is a myth. It may not be audibly better than using fewer bits, but it's never worse. Now, it's true that 24-bit converters give more like only 20 bits. But the loss (unused bits) is at the bottom not the top. So in theory "using all the bits" is arguably better because it yields less distortion. Then again, even 14 bits is capable of very high fidelity if "all the bits" are used and recording levels are set carefully at the start.
What matters most is keeping the magnitude of this stuff in perspective. If a typical loudspeaker has 1 to 5 percent distortion, how important is the difference between 0.001 and 0.002 percent distortion in a converter?
--Ethan
J
Jason Chinchen
Made of rubber...
Ethan, that is the argument I use with JFrankP,
but he knows more than me....
JFP,
I am bouncing to a stereo track and getting that as close to 0 as I can......why doesnt that work?
but he knows more than me....
JFP,
I am bouncing to a stereo track and getting that as close to 0 as I can......why doesnt that work?
noisewreck
New member
I don't see where we're in a disagreement here either. Nobody is arguing against hitting hotter levels for special purposes. As I've mentioned earlier, I do this as well for timbral purposes. There is no bone. People are simply stating that it's not something you want to do on ALL your tracks. We are not talking about special circumstances or using gain for creative uses. When you are using gain for creative/sound shaping uses, all bets are off.And to answer noisewreck …I don’t do all my tracks on the hot side. I was simply making the point (and what I think has been the bone in this thread) that when I DO hit the hotter levels…it ain’t wrong or bad.
noisewreck
New member
Depends on the quality of distortion and the number of tracks that get passed through the converter individually.
For someone like BT who has a habit of having over 100 tracks in a tune, that would be a significant number.
Again, test tones are test tones, and real world is the real world. And again, you're only half-right
noisewreck
New member
If you can use all the bits w/o distorting your analog front end, then go for it.
The argument that you keep ignoring is that most analog equipment isn't happy with consistently running at +22dBu to feed your converter at 0dBFS.
J
JFrankParnell
New member
Oh, absolutely. Given that you arent clipping or distorting at any point in your chain, you should record to digital up to 0. If you are getting distortion in your mic->pre stages, obviously, thats no good. But, in most modern mixers or mic pres that output to firewire, thats not going to be a problem.
J
JFrankParnell
New member
Thats what you should be doing... But that doesnt have anything to do with "how hot should i record my tracks?", Except that if you record tracks at lower levels, you'll have to mix it with more gain (Sonar's trim, faders, etc) which will raise your noise floor, or expose the lower signal:noise ratio that you recorded to disc with your -12db self imposed ceiling.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
I don't know if THAT has really been the crux of this thread....as it's only come into the discussion in these last couple of pages when all the other arguments against "hot" fell short.
We ALL agree that running all the time at or very near 0dBFS for all your tracks is probably NOT going to be a good thing as there is a lot of cheap analog gear out there that can get home recordists into trouble if pushed to its limit...and quite frankly, I don't recall anyone in this thread arguing FOR that.
However, there was for several pages of a strong argument against recording "hot"...PERIOD!
And THAT is really the only thing some of us have challenged throughout this thread.
As I begin some tracking sessions in the next couple of weeks (I hope)...I will make it a point to track a few things twice...once where I totally ignore the digital level of my converters (other than to make sure they are not clipping), and go for some "hotter" signals....
...and then a second time where I pull everything back so it hits mainly at the 0VU mark...
...and then I will compare the results once they are in the DAW.
If I notice anything other than differences in level...I'll let you guys know...though I'm sure there will be some tonal differences between a mildly driven pre and the same pre with a bit more juice added, but I doubt it will sound *worse" with more juice added.
I think I would have noticed that by now having been using the same mics, pres, converters and DAW software for a few years….but I will be open-minded about it.
J
JFrankParnell
New member
I do. Given that you dont use cheap gear, and that you are not overloading the mics, pres, mixers, etc, I argue that tracks should be recorded hot as possible, without clipping digital 0db. I say that the two reasons for this are signal:noise ratio and 'using all the bits'. It may be, as Ethan says in his posts and video (i watched), "It may not be audibly better than using fewer bits, but it's never worse". It cant hurt to use your bits to the max, and I dont like to second guess after the fact, "hmm, i wonder if this song would have sounded better if i'd have used all the bits?" I can record at 24 bits. I spent a lot of money on my gear. I'm getting every bit out of it that i can!
bozmillar
New member
I believe that the idea is that in order to work nicely with everything else, gear needs to work well at 0dBVU. Anything above that (in the analog world) is considered headroom or extra credit if that makes sense.
Apparently, this headroom region may not be as linear as it is in the nominal region. This is the part for me that I don't believe 100%. Not that I don't believe it, but I've never seen anything to show me that it may or may not be true. We tend to think of a preamp either being linear or clipping, but in between this linear point (odBVU and under) is some gray area, where it's not clipping, but it's not exactly linear either. This results in a signal with higher distortion as you get closer to 0dBFS. If you consider distortion to be noise, then you might effectively have a lower signal to noise ration at odBFS than you would at -18dBFS.
How much distortion is actually going on? I don't know. Is this distortion actually going on? I don't know. If it is, can anyone actually hear it? I don't know. I've never seen any evidence for or against it.
Ethan Winer
Acoustics Expert
What you keep ignoring
is there's no need for gain-staging like that, and I'll argue further that such gain-staging is bad practice. As I'm sure I already said, my setup has the preamp putting out around +8 when my sound card hits Digital Zero. I agree that +22 is too hot for most gear. So the obvious solution is don't do that! Problem solved.--Ethan
noisewreck
New member
Shit, it took 212 post for you to actually come out and say that tracking at +22 is not a good idea?What you keep ignoring
--Ethan
Bristol Posse
Okey Dokey
And thus we come back around to the problem that DAW meters do not give you any indication of what the voltages are. And the only way to know since it will vary from gear to gear is to test your own gear and find out. This is the step that most of us have missed.
Also you have to be aware if you are using transparent or color gear as this will have a big impact where you need to run too. As soon as you introduce any gear with designed in coloration, it doesn't matter how clean the pre is, if you put a piece of coloration gear after it you may/will find the more you push into it the more the signal is going to be altered maybe in a linear fashion maybe not.
If I run a signal thru clean pre->converter->DAW so long as I don't clip I can go as hot as I like +10 will just make it louder so long as +10 is within tolerance
If I run the same signal through a coloration pre->coloration EQ->coloration Compressor at +10 the result could be pleasing euphonic distortion, could be horrible distortion, could be clipping or could be fine depending on how each piece is calibrated and if my own experince of testing my own small gear selection is in any way indicative it would suggest there will a good amount of variation of how much headroom is available.
So you have to know your own gear and each pieces limitations that way you can gain stage effectively to get the result you want. Knowing what someone else is doing is academically of interest perhaps but irrelevant unless they are running precisely the same set up that you are
Having said all of that if you are unable, unwilling or not interested in finding out where you're gear runs if you run at RMS -12 to -18 dBFS you are pretty safe in assuming you won't clip anything. (although tracking RMS level on a DAW meter isn't easy either) and unless your gear has an inherently high noise floor shouldn't make a big impact. Using all the bits meh, Ethans video and the subsequent bit crusher testing of my own that it inspired, suggests to me that I won't notice any problem untill I get way below 16 bits anyway
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Farview
Well-known member
So the whole argument is a matter of perspective.What you keep ignoring
--Ethan
This is exactly what everyone has been arguing about. Most of the interfaces out there don't allow you to calibrate them, so recording at just under digital zero IS running the mic preamps close to +22.
Just curious: How did you calibrate the delta card to +4dbu = -4dbfs?
N
NYMorningstar
Recording Modus Operandi
Dynamic mics are real quiet and do not have significant self noise. Condensor mics are quite noisy in comparison. 
Different mics have different output voltages and different preamps have different input voltages. This is the stuff you should compare when matching preamps to your mics but I don't think many do this.
Most preamp manufacturers measure the input maximum input level with the gain control set at minimum.
That means that even after you carefuly match your components you may find that the mic can still overload the pre. This usually happens when the system needs the preamp turned up(reducing input headroom) and the mic is used for a wide dynamic range source. Ahh, gain staging, it's a beautiful thing.
What's this all mean? If you don't know what a pascal is(and you don't need to but it's fun stuff) and you don't match your components, then to be safe you need to not push your preamps up to anywhere near +22dBu or risk adding noise to your circuit that you may or may not hear until you master your levels.
Myself, I'm going to keep my tracking down to about -18dbFS and leave the rest to number crunchers. Somebody around here needs to be actually recording
Different mics have different output voltages and different preamps have different input voltages. This is the stuff you should compare when matching preamps to your mics but I don't think many do this.
Most preamp manufacturers measure the input maximum input level with the gain control set at minimum.
That means that even after you carefuly match your components you may find that the mic can still overload the pre. This usually happens when the system needs the preamp turned up(reducing input headroom) and the mic is used for a wide dynamic range source. Ahh, gain staging, it's a beautiful thing.
What's this all mean? If you don't know what a pascal is(and you don't need to but it's fun stuff) and you don't match your components, then to be safe you need to not push your preamps up to anywhere near +22dBu or risk adding noise to your circuit that you may or may not hear until you master your levels.
Myself, I'm going to keep my tracking down to about -18dbFS and leave the rest to number crunchers. Somebody around here needs to be actually recording
J
Jason Chinchen
Made of rubber...
I am, right now, just wrote a new song and recorded a take in between reading this thread and making crab cakes.....
bozmillar
New member
and I only post when I'm on the toilet.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
noisewreck
New member
Good. Under 18 would be illegal in most states.I'm shooting for +19dBu....