noisewreck
New member
Just look at our Congress. It will put everything in perspective
noisewreck
New member
Logarithmic. Base 3. Of course.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
EXACTLY!
You make my point for me.
Since he only has digital meters...how the heck does anyone here know what his front end is really doing to say that for his rig -2dBFS is not good…or much different than -20dBFS (other than pure level)?
My assumption was NOT that his front end was already crapping out...which is what a lot of folks here were jumping to by attacking the hotter digital levels. So with that in mind…the answer for him was NO, it’s not going to matter.
My assumption was and is...that he was already happy with his front end sound...
…so then WHO CARES where the digital meter hits and why would it matter?
I already stipulated that with all-in-one boxes you may only have the digital meters and that it's not always easy to separate out the different steps/processes...but then...JUST USE YOUR EARS!
If you like the sound going into the DAW...who cares what the digital meters are registering (as long as they are not clipping)!
I always listen and monitor my front end...and somehow the digital side just takes care of itself no matter how hard I drive the front end.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Yes...that's where my thinking has been.
Most of my pres sit comfortably when I'm tracking...but they all have MORE than enough gain and output to crush my converter if I turned up that high...
...so I've never noticed my front end gear straining to hit hotter digital levels.
J
JFrankParnell
New member
Ok, wait.
People are saying that mixing with a track that is recorded at -2 is more difficult than one recorded at -18?? Some one in this thread even said "i find i dont have to turn the track down as much" ????? Pffft, SFW?
Thats what mixing is! does it actually matter to you if your DAW fader for that track is down at the lower end? Does it make it harder to mix that track into the song? Nearly a laugh.
Track those tracks all the way up to 0 (without clipping). Use your preamps and your bits to the max. Even if you dont believe in 'using all the bits' it is not going to matter in any way at all once its recorded. Is the guitar too loud in the mix because you've recorded it at -1? Pffft, well turn down your damn fader, sparky!!!!
People are saying that mixing with a track that is recorded at -2 is more difficult than one recorded at -18?? Some one in this thread even said "i find i dont have to turn the track down as much" ????? Pffft, SFW?
Thats what mixing is! does it actually matter to you if your DAW fader for that track is down at the lower end? Does it make it harder to mix that track into the song? Nearly a laugh.
Track those tracks all the way up to 0 (without clipping). Use your preamps and your bits to the max. Even if you dont believe in 'using all the bits' it is not going to matter in any way at all once its recorded. Is the guitar too loud in the mix because you've recorded it at -1? Pffft, well turn down your damn fader, sparky!!!!
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
noisewreck
New member
Agreed. There are times when I will purposely drive the inputs on my interface hard to get them to clip as a timbre. However, you don't want to do that on every trackI don’t think everyone is always trying to get only pristine clean signals when it comes to using analog gear.
Agreed.I've already said in my own words that IF you are happy with your front end sound...WHO CARES what the converter is registering on its meters as long as it's not clipping.
Sometimes it is quite useful to push things into the outer limits, again for timbral effects. However, if you do that to everything, you're gonna have a mess in your hands to deal with. Even with the noisy/harsh stuff that I do, I cannot have every element be harsh and grating, otherwise it turns into an undefined mush and loses it's harshness and grating quality.
And this is where we're hitting a brick wall from both sides. As I mentioned earlier, the OP's question while referencing digital levels, was really about tracking levels. The only reason one would reference those digital levels in their DAW (this includes someone like me BTW who has no analog metering whatsoever, thus only has the DAW meters to reference) is because that's the only metering option they have at hand, thus naturally they're going to reference what they have. It is an error to infer from this that one is only talking about the digital realm. You need to go beyond what one is referencing for their levels and get to the bottom of the question. The question at heart was about tracking levels.
You are correct of course. However, that does not answer the actual question posed
Agreed
Nobody is saying that. And I think most of us (myself included) agree with this.
It's not a matter of cheap plugins. Some quite expensive plugins are specifically designed to be non-linear. Take the UAD 1176LN emulation for example. It is highly sensitive to the levels of signal that you put through it, by design. So, yeah when using plugins like that you have to be mindful of the levels. Personally, I like to drive it hard, especially using it as a mild distortion effect on synth bass. Has a nice way of giving it some higher harmonics w/o being overbearing, while bringing it into focus nicely.
Agreed.
Now, I just need you to agree that the OP's question at heart was really about tracking levels and not necessarily about what happens once the signal is converted to digital, even though he was referencing his singal levels in dBFS, and we will all be happy
Ethan Winer
Acoustics Expert
Excellent progress. So can I now assume that even the naysayers agree I was right all along?
Farview
Well-known member
This is why lawyers make so much money. Hot to tape is a whole different animal. In your system, you are running within the general sweet spot, if you didn't the tape would distort all to hell. You running your tape levels at +6dbVU would equate to running into the DAW at -12dbfs RMS. (assuming -18dbfs = 0dbVU for the sake of this discussion)OK Glen…maybe we are all talking extremes for effect.
First off…I don’t know how we got to equating “hot” levels with only/always hitting 0dBFS?
Heck…I think I stated a couple of times that at most, I’m hitting around the +8 maybe +6 on occasion…and you know, if anything, I’ve had to turn UP levels in my DAW on some tracks rather than EVER turn them down!!!
Now, if you recorded a really distorted guitar or some other instrument that that has a peak level close to it's RMS level into your DAW and Normalized it to -2dbfs, then fed that signal directly into your tape deck, it would sound like crap because of the tape (and possibly the decks input) distorting.
That's the disconnect between you and Glenn, your tape deck forces you to run at reasonably sane levels and compresses the transients so that when you dump it to digital, you naturally (possibly accidently) don't run into some of these issues that people that work completely digital do.
All Glen is really advocating is working with the same sort of gain staging you are, only without the analog tape forcing you to use those levels.
J
JFrankParnell
New member
YesIs that a technical term?
Pffft is an onomatopoeia describing the involuntary noise that one produces upon reading something that is irrelevant, nonsensical or absurd
noisewreck
New member
No. Because you're only half-rightExcellent progress. So can I now assume that even the naysayers agree I was right all along?
J
Jason Chinchen
Made of rubber...
jparnell,
I think you are insane. why cant I track at -15 and sum when I mix to just under clipping?
splain plweez?
I think you are insane. why cant I track at -15 and sum when I mix to just under clipping?
splain plweez?
noisewreck
New member
Yes, because most faders use logarithmic scale. Because of this you have finer resolution in the upper range of the fader's travel than you do at the bottom. Now, if you only draw automation into your DAW and set your levels by typing in numbers, then no problem. However, if you have a DAW control surface or even like to use your mouse to record automation data using the fader, it is MUCH easier when that fader is towards the upper range of it's travel.
Pffft... newbs
J
Jason Chinchen
Made of rubber...
I am a newb, sorta, so bear with me.
Ok, heres what I do.
Set up my mics and position my instrument voice, etc.
Set my faders on my mixer to 0 db.
Set my faders in Sonar to 0 db.
Test the mic and set my gain on the mixer till im hitting around -12 db in sonar.
Record.
Mix, then bump my signal with compression or gain in Sonar till its in the -3 db range.....and bounce to a stereo track making sure there are no overs...
Something wrong with this?
Ok, heres what I do.
Set up my mics and position my instrument voice, etc.
Set my faders on my mixer to 0 db.
Set my faders in Sonar to 0 db.
Test the mic and set my gain on the mixer till im hitting around -12 db in sonar.
Record.
Mix, then bump my signal with compression or gain in Sonar till its in the -3 db range.....and bounce to a stereo track making sure there are no overs...
Something wrong with this?
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
No, we already covered that aspect early on when I mentioned my own particular SOP of tracking to tape and dumping to DAW...
...but I have also stated that at times when I've skipped tape and gone from pre to converter...I can get pretty hot levels into the DAW without trashing my pres as they are able to easily drive the converters (which can take up to +22dBu) toward their red zone.
I would consider those signals as being "hot" when they are up around +8 or +6 VS down around -18 dBFS....and there's nothing wrong/bad about those signals that I've ever heard.
Again…if the “safe” approach is purely aimed at the guys consistently hitting -2dBFs and higher on everything they track…then I’ll agree they are probably on the outer limits of their gear, and that is certainly not a “safe” place to be all the time.
And to answer noisewreck …I don’t do all my tracks on the hot side. I was simply making the point (and what I think has been the bone in this thread) that when I DO hit the hotter levels…it ain’t wrong or bad.
bozmillar
New member
Nope. you're good. The whole point of this longwinded thread is that massive master wrote a rant on how people shouldn't track closer to 0 dB because it makes it sound worse. Some people have looked for an explanation as to why, but the only answer they get is "because it is, trust me," or "because the engineers design it that way."
I'd say best not to worry about it, because it doesn't really matter, and even if it did matter in general, that doesn't mean that it does matter on your setup.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Is this a standalone, analog mixer...or are you talking about a soft mixer in your DAW?
I'm assuming it's a standalone mixer with preamps, since you are plugging your mic into it...so in that case, why not set the gain between the mic and the pre/mixer...without looking at the DAW digital level?
It is the mic and pre that care about the gain...the DAW doesn't care as long as you don't clip the converter...and you have lots of room between -12 and 0dBFS.
Granted, if you go for a "middlin" setting on your pre/mixer...you will probably hit the DAW in its "middlin" range (somewhere around -18 to -12 dBFS, depending on where your DAW is calibrated for 0VU)...but if want to drive the pre a little harder because you like the sound you get from doing that, then by looking at the digital meters and aiming for -12dBFS, you may never be able to drive the pre harder as you will be too focused on hitting -12dBFS.
The point here and throughout this thread is that you/we have a decent amount of room to work with both on the analog and digital side...so use it without fear!
J
JFrankParnell
New member
irrelevant. faders dont usually control level to 'tape'. Unless yours do.
irrelevant. faders in Sonar dont affect recording level. neither does the trim, eq, fx, etc
well, thats the whole question of this thread, "what level should i record at?" Noone has given a good reason to record at -12 or -18. I argue that recording up to 0 'uses all the bits' At least one person has said that 'using all the bits' is a myth. Well, then, why do we have the capability to record at higher bit depths?
bump it to -3?? Measured where? Till the meter on that track says -3? Why? When you mix, you dont bump it or pull it down to any specific number, you mix that track in the context of the song.
J
JFrankParnell
New member
I thought someone might mention this, lol. True. But here is where you might use the trim at the top of the track in Sonar.Yes, because most faders use logarithmic scale. Because of this you have finer resolution in the upper range of the fader's travel than you do at the bottom. Now, if you only draw automation into your DAW and set your levels by typing in numbers, then no problem. However, if you have a DAW control surface or even like to use your mouse to record automation data using the fader, it is MUCH easier when that fader is towards the upper range of it's travel.
Pffft... newbs
J
Jason Chinchen
Made of rubber...
Mkay, that sounds like what JFrankParnell has been telling me....dammit I hate it when hes right! ( which is ((almost)) always).
It is a stand alone mixer (alesis firewire), and yea I see your point about driving it harder for the sound, so Im getting more juice ( compression?) when I run the pre harder? What if I am getting the sound I want but its clipping once or twice?
I usually listen for the hiss when Im setting the gain on my condenser for instance, and come to think about it I do try to get good *sounding* signals when Im setting up more than worrying about the levels. They can range from -20 to -6 and Im OK with that as long as they sound balanced...with one another.
Granted we are talking about 2 or 3 mics at a time max.
It is a stand alone mixer (alesis firewire), and yea I see your point about driving it harder for the sound, so Im getting more juice ( compression?) when I run the pre harder? What if I am getting the sound I want but its clipping once or twice?
I usually listen for the hiss when Im setting the gain on my condenser for instance, and come to think about it I do try to get good *sounding* signals when Im setting up more than worrying about the levels. They can range from -20 to -6 and Im OK with that as long as they sound balanced...with one another.
Granted we are talking about 2 or 3 mics at a time max.