Question about recording levels.

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Manslick

Manslick

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My drums are mic’d as follows

Mic on bass drum AKG D112
Mic on top of snare AT3030
Mic on bottom of snare SM 58
Mic on bottom of right mounted tom. AT4033
Mics in recorderman configuration as over heads (1) Studio Projects C1 and (1) Samson C01

So when I hit the snare drum how high should the overhead level be in reference to the ones on the snare?

Should the OH be the same, half as much, twice as much?

What do you do?

Thanks
 
This diagram shows the levels when the snare drum only is hit. It’s a random example.

If the overheads don’t pick up more than the individual close mics then I won’t hear that wide stereo image. Then with later processing the effect will be less apparent.

Also, do you track at close to 0db, -16db, what?
 

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No definitely not close to 0. I try to keep it around -16 to -10. If it's a really difficult take and I feel it'll take too long to record another one like that, I'll keep it even if it goes up to -6. But nothing above that.
 
Manslick said:
This diagram shows the levels when the snare drum only is hit. It’s a random example.

If the overheads don’t pick up more than the individual close mics then I won’t hear that wide stereo image. Then with later processing the effect will be less apparent.
Click to expand...
I don't think I've ever looked at it by the numbers like that. You bring them up in the mix and adjust for a blend that fits the song.
Also, do you track at close to 0db, -16db, what?
Click to expand...
Meters in peak mode (I like 'peak + RMS in Sonar which gives you both views of it), but for percussion (anything actually) 'peaks always some safe amount below 0dbfs.
For non percussion stuff that equates to RMS levels around -18—24 or so. That's generally your nominal analog front end and converter levels.

So when I hit the snare drum how high should the overhead level be in reference to the ones on the snare?
Click to expand...
Your original question was about record levels, but you don't (generally) worry about record levels in reference to where they might land in the mix—right? Am I missing the question?
 
I wouldn't throw away a track just because it gets past -6. That's retarded. And don't get caught up in comparing numbers. That's what faders are for. Listen and adjust accordingly. Focus more on good mic placement and good drum sounds and don't clip anything and the rest will take care of itself.
 
Greg_L said:
I wouldn't throw away a track just because it gets past -6. That's retarded.
Click to expand...

Really? I don't know, if the whole track is around -15 and it goes upto -3,-4 only at one point I get really annoyed and do it again. I guess it's mostly psychological, but I like the track to be more or less even.
 
mixsit said:
I don't think I've ever looked at it by the numbers like that. You bring them up in the mix and adjust for a blend that fits the song.

Meters in peak mode (I like 'peak + RMS in Sonar which gives you both views of it), but for percussion (anything actually) 'peaks always some safe amount below 0dbfs.
For non percussion stuff that equates to RMS levels around -18—24 or so. That's generally your nominal analog front end and converter levels.

Your original question was about record levels, but you don't (generally) worry about record levels in reference to where they might land in the mix—right? Am I missing the question?
Click to expand...

I am running all these mics thru a mixer then out to a USB interface; and the recorder gets a mix that I can’t fix after the fact.

It seems like all I do is turn knobs aimlessly hoping to one day get everything to fall into place.

So I thought I ask some questions about how you all go about it.

I take it you all track separately.
 
Yeah, that's actually a little weird there Saads. :p I mean, there's good record level practices and all but sometimes shit happens. :)
If I'm in the middle of someone's vocal take and it catches me, I pucker a bit for not having set it better but I'm not going to stop the take if I don't hear it as a crash!
You (I am) might be surprised where a short red' isn't even heard.
 
Manslick said:
I am running all these mics thru a mixer then out to a USB interface; and the recorder gets a mix that I can’t fix after the fact.

It seems like all I do is turn knobs aimlessly hoping to one day get everything to fall into place.

So I thought I ask some questions about how you all go about it.

I take it you all track separately.
Click to expand...

Yikes that's a whole diff ballgame.
Yes, you are going to be in 'test record, adjust, and re-record mode untill you get a mix.
But even in that case your recording is the output of a mix. The general task is the same in one respect though and that is you're still setting each pre at the mixer for correct nominal input level, and using the faders for that mix.
(Yes there is a 'faders at zero and 'mix at the trims' methodology as well but for now, go with setting the input per the reg's. :)
 
Didn’t quite follow that last line there.
go with setting the input per the reg's”
Click to expand...

Yes right now I am mixing with trims.

So how much snare do you like from the overheads? I know that is hard to answer. Say 20% of the OHs, 60%?

And thanks for the help. :)
 
mixsit said:
Yeah, that's actually a little weird there Saads. :p
Click to expand...

:o Well I used to record "as hot as possible without clipping" but then I read it was good to record way below that. I guess I over-compensated :eek:
 
Manslick said:
So how much snare do you like from the overheads? I know that is hard to answer. Say 20% of the OHs, 60%?

And thanks for the help. :)
Click to expand...

Not sure if it's possible to answer that as a percentage, but if I just play back my overheads I get a nice well rounded sound of the whole kit, including the snare. The spot mic on the snare is to make sure the snare still stands out when all the other instruments come into play.
 
No problem. But stick around to see what the other guys have to say. They know a lot more than I do :)
 
Well just to toss in another bit (and this one's a variable too... :)
When I think 'O/H's to me it's my 'kit mics', and I place them rather low and to the sides- to get more 'kit' (skins), less cymbals. (and it's a compromise -for better isolation in my 1-2 room 'band tracking. So here I am from way on one end of the scale. When you say 'O/H's some will think more 'cymbals', and everything close mic'd' on the other end of the scale.
So my 'snare vs OH ratio might be rather closer overall than some 'norm, but...
I just never thought of it that way. Sometimes, on a string of songs, I go back and compare, ask 'why'd this one come out sounding such and such and this other didn't?' (same session). That doesn't even work out that well for me.

To answer.. I'd have to pull up a few different mixes, (turn on the track meters 'cause I don't hardly even use 'em :rolleyes:).. to see.
 
Nah don't bother with all that. When I started this I didn't consider that most people track things separately. So I can understand why you never thought of it this way.
The approach I'm using right now is to record a minute of drumming and then see where the levels are sitting. I use a recorder as the mixer - long story. Anyway I got so used to watching the meters that I got to thinking in terms of ratios, so i figured that'd be an easy way to communicate the settings. But the opposite seems to be true. That's cool, even if you knew your ratios they probably would not work for me. In my room today it seems I need about 20% from the OHs so that I don't get that wide stereo image on the snare. Tomorrow it will be 15%. :)
 
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