Question about Bass.

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DVZON

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Many people like the bass to stand out, and I'd like that too so I was thinking, wouldn't a good technique for the bass to stand out be making it bassy and louder than any of the other tracks. Meaning, mix it in with the drum, but still be quite stronger than the kick. every other instrument is gonna sound fine anyways, plus the trick is to make it so it doesn't clip or distort. Is this a good technique to use? anyone?
 
DVZON said:
wouldn't a good technique for the bass to stand out be making it bassy and louder than any of the other tracks . . .

. . . plus the trick is to make it so it doesn't clip or distort.

That's a brilliant idea. I'm going to have to try that one sometime. :D You, my friend, have a definite future in the recording world. Stick around.
 
Ok, screw you smart ass!!! I'm just starting to really get into the whole mastering techniques, and I just wnated to know, Why the f*** do they have people like you around here who can't give a constructive answer. Seriously.
 
He's just making a joke - no biggie.

If you want your bass track to stand out, you have three main options:

1 turn up the level, but make sure you don't clip

2 EQ the bass and kick differently so that the bass has a different EQ to the kick - it'll sound different and stand out more

3 pan the bass away from the kick (a lot of people don't like panning either the kick or the bass away from dead center, so you might not want to do that)

As for me, although I like the bass to be a distinct sound in the mix, I don't like it louder than the kick usually - I'm looking for *everything* in the mix to get heard, and as soon as you turn up one thing like the bass, it makes everything else, including the kick, less audible. I don't like that.

But if you take it one step back to the recording phase, you can make your bass tracks more easily audible without adding loads of gain to the track simply by recording the bass with a different tone - I often like bass tracks with quite a bit of treble in the sound, and they stand out like crazy. That sound drives Slackmaster crazy, though. It's *his* problem, though. :D
 
That technique might work in some situations. But you gotta be careful-- low frequencies take a lot of energy and can eat up your available bandwidth in no time. Finding room for everything in the mix is a bit of a black art, and I certainly haven't mastered it.

There are a lot of variables here: the bass tone, what other instruments are in the mix, etc. You may need to run other tracks through a high-pass filter so they aren't "piling on" in the low frequencies if you just try boosting the bottom and mixing the bass track louder. The only answer I could give is that it's an unfortunate case of "it all depends". And even if it works on one song, that doesn't mean that trick will always work.

Also, depending on the song and what I'm going for, I often like the kick and bass to "blend" into one nice thumpy sound... personally.
 
I personally don't think emphasizing bass over kick is a good idea. A good sounding kick can give a song real drive and power. I didn't really think about the kick on my earliest recordings, but I was making sure the bass could be heard. People who heard the recordings pointed out that either the kicks were missing or the drums weren't very well recorded (this in addition to the overall amateur sound quality they noticed)..

I'm with the others: you need to find a frequency combination that allows the two to work together. If you have a song where the kick and bass are playing the same beats, I figure that you will be doing well if you can hear the bass note and the punch of the kick behind it.

Cy
 
The way to get almost any instrument to stand out in the mix is to compress the crap out of it and add lots of make up gain.
 
Thank you all for your help. I still don't know nor have any idea what compressing does. Of course, I've read it, and I've tryed with soundforge and cool edit, goldwave, but still, when i do it, it just takes loudness and power away from the instruments I do it on. I will just take each track to a sound enginner with about 2 decades of experience. Thank you for your help though!

Just wondering though? Is it true about the saying that goes "Is not how loud you make it, but how you make it loud? Because what you said about 'make up gain'. When you compress an instrument such as 'bass', do you have to make it louder after compression by playing around with 'eq' or just by making it loud with volume control???
 
I'm a newbie myself, pay no attention to the title under my username. Its forged.

Anyway,One thing that helps me with bass is to listen to the way you have the bass when playing live. Tons of really deep bottom end, right? Seems like it can't get much lower? Now listen carefully to a commercial recording and listen to the bottom end of that bass. Korns first album is a good example of what I'm getting at if you like that kind of music. The bass sticks out plain as day, but the bottom end isnt quite as deep as most people have their basses live. Thats basically to make room for the kick, which is almost always deeper. Not always more apparent, but deeper.

I like to think of all the instruments and their "bottom ends" almost like a cross section of a valley or maybe even a sandwich. At the very rock bottom you have the low end thump of the kick holding up the next "layer" which would be the lower end of the bass, then on top of that you have the lower end of the guitars then you go on up to the mids and higher frequencies.

*Just a reminder that I am a newbie and could potentially being leading you in the wrong direction. If I am, hopefully a more experienced member will correct me where I'm wrong.*

basically what I'm saying is everything has its place in the mix and has its own job to do. let the kick do its job, let the bass do its job, etc. and give them all room to work. Of course then there comes to the one rule of creativity which is "there are no rules" which theoretically could throw my whole reply out the window. :D Just trying to help a little.
 
[QUOTEOf course then there comes to the one rule of creativity which is "there are no rules" which theoretically could throw my whole reply out the window. :D Just trying to help a little. [/B][/QUOTE]

Ain't that the truth. I've been struggling for a week with this one song, trying to get the bass right. If it was loud enough it was too "boomy"; if it was the right tone, it wasn't loud enough. I went back and forth, trying to get it right.

Today I finally nailed it & it was by just cutting loose and doing everything and anything I could think of to the track to see what might work. A fairly common trick to get the bass to stand out a bit more is to roll of the lower frequencies. Most people seem to mention rolling off below 40 or 50 hz. But what finally did the trick for me was rolling off everything below 80hz. I dunno if a rolloff of that breadth is ever done, but for this particular situation it was exactly what was called for.

No rules! Anarchy! Let's take the building boys!

Chris
 
Thank you for all your replies. But I have decided to take a midi track to a recording studio, and record everything there with my synth, (of course not midi, but the synths). They will master it. I rather put the money in than send a weak and low quality song to a few dance music producers. Thank you again!
 
DVZON said:
Thank you all for your help. I still don't know nor have any idea what compressing does. Of course, I've read it, and I've tryed with soundforge and cool edit, goldwave, but still, when i do it, it just takes loudness and power away from the instruments I do it on. I will just take each track to a sound enginner with about 2 decades of experience. Thank you for your help though!

Just wondering though? Is it true about the saying that goes "Is not how loud you make it, but how you make it loud? Because what you said about 'make up gain'. When you compress an instrument such as 'bass', do you have to make it louder after compression by playing around with 'eq' or just by making it loud with volume control???

Don't feel bad, D. Your questions are typical of any beginning user of compression.

You're right, when you compress something, usually the track will sound softer. This is because you are reducing the dynamic range of the material, squishing down the louder parts (or everything, depending on where you set the threshold). So why would you want to make a track "softer" with compression if your overall goal is to make it stand out in the mix? Good question!

Let's take an example of a bass track that has an average level that hangs out around -12 dB on your digital VU meter, but has peaks that occasionally get up to -2dB. Now if you just raise the volume, you only have 2dB to play with, so you can get the average level up to -10dB but no hotter, or else the peaks will clip. Let's say that you now try a compressor, and set the threshold for -10dB, so that the average sections aren't affected much, and you use a ratio of 4:1 and a fairly short attack time, the result will be that now the average part of the track will still be about -12dB, but the peaks will only be at around -8dB or so.

And here's the important final step. Now that you have 8dB of headroom instead of 2dB, you can now raise the bass track 8dB without clipping, instead of 2dB. Usually there is a control right on the compressor called "gain" or "makeup gain" for doing just that.

This is just a very simple example of using compression to get a track louder. With practise, you can also use compression to actually change the sound, the decay, smooth out or exagerate attacks, etc.
 
groucho said:
Ain't that the truth. I've been struggling for a week with this one song, trying to get the bass right. If it was loud enough it was too "boomy"; if it was the right tone, it wasn't loud enough. I went back and forth, trying to get it right.

Today I finally nailed it & it was by just cutting loose and doing everything and anything I could think of to the track to see what might work. A fairly common trick to get the bass to stand out a bit more is to roll of the lower frequencies. Most people seem to mention rolling off below 40 or 50 hz. But what finally did the trick for me was rolling off everything below 80hz. I dunno if a rolloff of that breadth is ever done, but for this particular situation it was exactly what was called for.

No rules! Anarchy! Let's take the building boys!

Chris [/B]

I say, Hell yes! Whatever it takes. Some basses put out tons of low end. My friend's active bass comes to mind. I've had to dip out lows, even shelving it down to get in line.
Then there's the situation where there are not enough mid harmonics to catch your ear. You can boost, but if they aren't there, you can re-amp or run it through a distortion plug to add some 'handles'.:p

To qoute Arnold: Do it! Here I'm am! Just kill me!
:D
 
I'm relatively new to the whole recording/mixing world, but I have read up quite a bit on the process and experimented with what I've learned.

My band recorded a demo, and the quality was pretty crappy. The studio guy had fairly decent equipment, so I was expecting some pretty well recorded tracks. However, I was wrong, and thoroughly disappointed, as the result was very, very lame. So I was forced to fix the recordings myself with my limited access to good equipment/software.

Anyway, moving along, since I am a bass player, I concentrated on making my bass playing stick out and have a good tone. The key to this, as many have mentioned, is compression and EQing.

The studio guy had compressed the bass track before I got access to it, so I didn't really have to compress it again to get more headroom. I then shifted my attention to EQ. I first found the frequency range of the kick and the snare, and then cut a notch in all the tracks out of those ranges, which helped the drums get some definition.

Then I experimented with a paramentric EQ by keeping a constant Q and gain boost while sweeping the center frequency to find friendly and harmful frequencies. One advantage that I had was that since I am a bass player, I have a pretty good idea of how different frequencies affect your sound, so I had kind of a head start. To sum it up, here's more or less what I did in terms of EQing my bass track:

1. Roll off frequencies below 40ish Hz.
2. Cut a small notch at 66-70 Hz (the kick).
3. Cut a small notch at 160 Hz (snare).
4. Boost (with a parametric EQ) in the 80-85 Hz and the 120-250 Hz regions (this gives punch and growl). Be careful, as boosting too much here can really eat up headroom and muddy up your overall sound.
5. Cut in the 300-550ish Hz range (boosting gives a honky sound, which I don't like, and if you overdo it, it'll get really muddy and interfere with the guitars).
6. Boost at 800 Hz. This is the "magic" frequency for bass, because it gives definition and some power to the track and really helps it stand out.
7. Boost 1.2-1.6 kHz a tad to get some more clarity a bit of the percussive effect.
8. Roll off the super highs, because they're only eating up headroom and don't really help too much (just like everything else, listen to what you're doing to avoid overdoing it).

For the frequencies I boosted, I cut a notch out of the other tracks so that there was no fighting over that space between the different tracks. A couple of times I overdid some of the boosts, so I had to use compression to tame it down (multi-band is great for these purposes). I used compression instead of EQing those frequencies out because compression helped control dynamics, which is what I needed, rather than changing the sonic character, which is what the EQ was doing.

These steps may help you out a bit, take them with a grain of salt, as what works for me may not work for you (not to mention that I'm pretty new to all this). Also, remember that the best way to get something to stick out more is to see how it sits in the mix in relation to others. Before I had learned about "carving out space" for different instruments, I would just EQ the specific track and not get anywhere. But when I started manipulating the other instrument tracks carefully (again, don't overdo it, or you'll change the sound of those tracks), a little bit got me very far.

While the mix doesn't sound as good as I would like it to (I had very limited time with the equipment and all), the bass does stand out much more than it initially did, you can actually the individual instruments. A friend commented on how the bass sits very nicely and distinctly in the mix, which was nice to hear. If I had more time to mess around on the mix, and had the intial recorded quality of the tracks been better, I know I could have done a better job. But then again, we can't all get what we want, and we have to start somewhere.

Anyway, good luck, and don't give up!
 
Why not start with the basics of recording / mixing --------

Every instrument / track should have its own space within the frequency spectrum.

However limited you might be in your available equipment, play aroung with the EQ until you are happy with kick track, then start adding the bass track and adjust it / themm until both tracks have their own space and can be heard clearly without it all turning into one low-end mush
 
demensia said:
How big are the notches that you generally cut?

I'm not sure who you're asking, but if it's me, here's what I do:

For the kick and snare, the cut bands are very narrow, i.e. ~5-10 Hz. For the mid-midrange cuts (300-550ish), I'll keep a wide Q and mess around. I'll probably start off with a center frequency of 400-450 (it's in the middle of the range I want to cut), and then start experimenting with the Q and gain (cut) until I find something I'm happy with. For the highs, I'll roll them off until I can really hear it make a significant impact. Once I reach that point, I know I've done too much (unless the situation calls for it).

Now, in my experience, sometimes the cuts don't make much of a difference to the bass track by itself, but when you play it back with the others, there's a definite improvement. Trial and error really is the key here.

Again, the ears will guide you much more than sheer numbers, graphs, charts, etc.
 
Great thread and suggestions.

The guy from Papas Fritas said in an interview that they put the bass down last and that alone gives the instrument more presense and deffination.

I've been trying this, basically doubling a scratch bassline upon which other tracks are built and it's working well, although there are still the eq issues addressed above (i get too much low end and need to trim them), but it solves the gain problems to a degree.
 
Pardon my ignorance, but does "put the bass down last" mean mix it after all the other instruments/vocals, or track and record it last?

If it's tracking/recording, I don't see why it would matter. Actually, if it were mixing, I don't see why it would make a significant difference. I know that it would sound different, because you're making the bass fit into the mix rather than vice versa, but I would think that having the bass and drums first would give them more "authority" because you're working everything around them.

At least that's how I approach the task, i.e. get a good solid rhythm section first (bass 'n drums), then work everything around them to get a good, well-balanced mix.
 
sidechain the kick and bass

run the bass thru the audio portion of the compressor or expander, while the kick drums goes into the key or sidechain input. Set it for around 6-12 dB reduction and REALLY fast attack and release.

mess with the release control until it sounds like the kick drum is " playing the bass"

thats one way around it
 
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