Quality Commentary - not an mp3

There are such things as "universally bad" in music
I know what you mean but...

When I think of music of different cultures or even commercial retail genres, what's considered thoughtlessness or ripping off in one can be considered freely improvisational or a theme and variation in another.

Even things like what is and isn't good intonation varies... talk to an opera singer about what they think of the vocal intonation of a typical 60's top 40 pop tune!

Tim
 
xfinsterx said:
Youre romanticizing the past too much.


that is not correct.


there were some comments about "univerSALLY bad".... that is what I was implying too. I have yet to really hear a genre were poor timing was excusable... and don't give me that free form stuff. Same with tuning, poor instrument sounds, when you have a GOOD idea what the poster was shooting for.

I have yet to see the MP3 file that was so original that these sort of "boundaries" could be overstepped.

However, all that said, this IS one of the best places on the internet for people to learn. I know for FACT that many have learned from this very clinic, and would say it is in general a very positive influence for most participants. The mixing contests were fantastic for those interested. However, it just "appears" that the general amount of "upper level home brew" has dwindled a tad. That is not to say that some of the "average" posters here will soon be posting some really good stuff with credit given to their involvement in this clinic. It also "appears" that the number of people posting has greatly increased, and that there are many first time posters here just starting out. Hey, but that is what this place is great for. But that has also seemed to lower the level of quality stuff hear too.

Additionally, I also prefer hearing what others do "on their own" over the radio trash nowadays. I find it MUCH more interesting to listen to, even if it is sub par much of the time.
 
Same with tuning, poor instrument sounds, when you have a GOOD idea what the poster was shooting for.

That's a good point... knowing what the poster was aiming at. And I agree with that because I think it's all about frame of reference. But I guess I come to the clinic thinking as much about gamelan music, chant, and contemporary atonal as I'm thinking about rock guitar and its characteristic rhythms and tonalities.

When I was in college and trying to win over my later-to-be-wife I used to go to her dorm room and play for her. She had a roommate from a small rural town in China who would sometimes listen. She commented once that though she liked the tone and varied harmonies and voices in the pieces, what she liked the most was the occasional buzzing vibration in the bass strings that would happen at the intense parts. It was a sonority similar to instruments she had grown up hearing and to her it added a character to the sound that helped her like the rest more. She thought that I did it intentionally. Of course to me those buzzes were errors I cringed at.

Tim
 
During Lawler's tenure here, I've learned something hideously important and it has really changed (for the better) the way I listen to music. I think it's pretty universally known by now that not only does Tim possess a ridiculous amount of talent, he's also a nice guy. For awhile there, I had just assumed that he was such a nice guy, that the comments he made for other people's songs were simply "lip service" a lot of times. But after a while, I started reading his comments a little more closely and learned that this was most definitely not the case. It became apparent that this guy has reached a level of musical understanding that he is able to ALWAYS notice something amazing in ANY song. I've got to admit...that's quite respectable, and I would imagine that somebody that can hit that level of enjoyment no matter what is thrown at him...well, let's put it this way: How cool would it be to find beauty in any sound that hits your ears? I remembered reading a Dimebag interview (always loved his interviews) where he talked about going to a music store and no matter how shitty sounding the random 12 year old's guitar playing was, he always found it beautiful--just because that kid was playing on a guitar. On a site like this, things become difficult because (by the very nature of why this place exists) there are some phenomenal musicians writing phenomenal songs who just haven't hit that point of execution where the CD will sound exactly like they want the song to. I STILL don't know how in the hell to work a compressor! But maybe that can be part of the enjoyment of it all. Frustration is certainly one of my favorite emotional themes to write about and to listen to...now I'm getting better at hearing what the song intended to be rather than stopping at its own technical limitations.

Great. I just doomed myself into trying to learn how to enjoy reggae. :D
 
Purge said:
During Lawler's tenure here, I've learned something hideously important and it has really changed (for the better) the way I listen to music. I think it's pretty universally known by now that not only does Tim possess a ridiculous amount of talent, he's also a nice guy. For awhile there, I had just assumed that he was such a nice guy, that the comments he made for other people's songs were simply "lip service" a lot of times. But after a while, I started reading his comments a little more closely and learned that this was most definitely not the case. It became apparent that this guy has reached a level of musical understanding that he is able to ALWAYS notice something amazing in ANY song. I've got to admit...that's quite respectable, and I would imagine that somebody that can hit that level of enjoyment no matter what is thrown at him...well, let's put it this way: How cool would it be to find beauty in any sound that hits your ears? I remembered reading a Dimebag interview (always loved his interviews) where he talked about going to a music store and no matter how shitty sounding the random 12 year old's guitar playing was, he always found it beautiful--just because that kid was playing on a guitar. On a site like this, things become difficult because (by the very nature of why this place exists) there are some phenomenal musicians writing phenomenal songs who just haven't hit that point of execution where the CD will sound exactly like they want the song to. I STILL don't know how in the hell to work a compressor! But maybe that can be part of the enjoyment of it all. Frustration is certainly one of my favorite emotional themes to write about and to listen to...now I'm getting better at hearing what the song intended to be rather than stopping at its own technical limitations.

Great. I just doomed myself into trying to learn how to enjoy reggae. :D

Dude, I can play the piano a bit. That, my friend, is Doomed. Wanna hear? :D
Ed
 
Travis said:
I like to hear "people" in music not necessarily equipment and polished up productions.

Yeah! And even when a person gets to the point where they've got all the high end gear they could ever need, and a great sounding room, great instruments and skills, still the ultimate production achievement IMO is to hear the person, not the gear or the techniques.

Purge said:
How cool would it be to find beauty in any sound that hits your ears?
Thanks Purge. Made my day.

Tim
 
Last edited:
Wow. Started a bunch of negativity that I didn't intend. Maybe I should have been a bit more clear on what I was commenting on. That always helps, eh?

When I first got here, I was fairly new to home recording and I didn't know WHO was WHO and who was good at what they do, who wasn't, who knew the right things to comment on, etc. So I took all the advice at face value and thought there must surely be something wrong with my mixes - ALTHOUGH THEY SOUNDED GOOD TO ME. What I learned first was about EQ and making space for the different instruments (including vocals - voice is an instrument too).

Then I learned about reverb and how to apply carefully instead of just cranking it and letting it fly. Even my ex made a comment about that and one that she heard from a family friend who was doing home recording. She said the one thing she noticed the most on his and my CD was all the reverb. So I've learned to tone that down.

Believe it or not I really HAVE learned a boatload of extremely helpful stuff since I discovered this board, and I believe John at Massive is the one who steered me here. Still trying to figure out the compression, limiter, -6db recording thing and a few others but that will come in time. Right now I'm trying to figure out which new monitors I want to get. But that's another thread.

Now, what got me confused at first, and I even posted something about it quite a while back, was the 'if it sounds good to you then it is right.' I thought my stuff sounded good. So I post them here and was told, too much verb, too much bass, turn the drums up, EQ the cymbals they're killing my ears, don't pan so hard, pan harder, can't hear the vocal, etc. Now a lot of these comments don't really fall under the 'if it sounds good' rule of thumb. The EQ thing was dead on because I never really thought how much it would clean up my mixes. And too much bass? That could go either way. Maybe I was going for that sound. But then as a second guess on myself I would think that maybe I overdid it. Too much verb? Same again! Panning too hard? Not hard enough? Shit city... So I started redoing my mixes applying the suggestions, turning down the verb, panning a little less, turning up the vocal, etc., and it made the song sound totally different than what was in my head. And what was in my head was what I started with! Some of the suggestions worked, like the EQ thing as it really did clean up my mixes a lot. And the verb thing... yeah I overdid it as any newbie does. But the rest I think is, as was said earlier by I Forget Who :) , just different people's opinions.

So I've learned what to 'look for' in a critique and what to ignore. Don't get me wrong! I really HAVE learned TONS from this board and all the fine people who are willing to help (I ignore the ones who just want to start some shit in every freaking thread posted) and you have all pointed things out to me that I needed to learn. Which is why I come back here 25 times a day! And it just can't be said enough, no matter who you are. Thanks to you all for all the help you provide!

And to those who were following or were wondering - I won my case. Mom gets to stay in the house that she has lived in for 30 years and my asshole brothers don't get to hijack her estate. Thanks to all who supported me in THAT 'war.'

Oh, and one more thing... Lawler! Have I told you I hate you lately? :) That is some seriously awesome playing dude! I have a song that I would LOVE to hear you playing on. But sadly, it needs EQ'ing... and there's too much verb... and the guitars are panned too hard... and the bass is too loud... and the drums aren't loud enough... and the kick sucks... and the vocals are buried (oh, wait... I haven't recorded the vocal yet!)... and there's phasing (which I'm still trying to figure out) on the stereo XY triple mic'd room mics, etc... ;)
 
7string said:
And to those who were following or were wondering - I won my case. Mom gets to stay in the house that she has lived in for 30 years and my asshole brothers don't get to hijack her estate. Thanks to all who supported me in THAT 'war.'
QUOTE]
7, I think I posted something way back when about this. Not sure, but it sounds familiar. We went through hell when my wifes mother died, and she was the Personal Rep for the estate. One brother wanted everything, started a fight, and all assets had to be liquidated. Very ugly. They now no longer speak. He has been arrested for spousel abuse, resisting arrest, theft, and battery. He is a retired Doctor. Really sad. Hope yours turns out better.

And as far as advice goes, remember everyone hears different things, so what they want in a song may not be what you want. Doesn't make it wrong, just different. I think others have said it, but you just say thanks, try what sounds reasonable, and be thankful someone took the time to listen. Most people on here are very well meaning, and do their best to be helpful. My last upload has so much advice, it's unbelievable. Most, if not all of it is stuff that will make me better, I just need to implement it now. And I thank all of you for the fun times had on here.
Ed
 
Dogman said:
7, I think I posted something way back when about this. Not sure, but it sounds familiar. We went through hell when my wifes mother died, and she was the Personal Rep for the estate. One brother wanted everything, started a fight, and all assets had to be liquidated. Very ugly. They now no longer speak. He has been arrested for spousel abuse, resisting arrest, theft, and battery. He is a retired Doctor. Really sad. Hope yours turns out better.

Well it's all over now. They lost and I won so it did turn out better. There is a conservator in charge of Mom's money so when she does go there will be no hijacking of her things. The house will be locked down, her money will be locked down and the estate will go through probate court! :)

Dogman said:
And as far as advice goes, remember everyone hears different things, so what they want in a song may not be what you want. Doesn't make it wrong, just different. I think others have said it, but you just say thanks, try what sounds reasonable, and be thankful someone took the time to listen. Most people on here are very well meaning, and do their best to be helpful. My last upload has so much advice, it's unbelievable. Most, if not all of it is stuff that will make me better, I just need to implement it now. And I thank all of you for the fun times had on here.
Ed

Exactly. Pick and choose what will help you. But when you're a n00b it's pretty hard to to know just WHAT to pick and choose and that is what made it so confusing. Until you get to know this place it can be a bit confusing as well as disheartening. And you're right... this place is a blast!
 
But when you're a n00b it's pretty hard to to know just WHAT to pick and choose and that is what made it so confusing. Until you get to know this place it can be a bit confusing as well as disheartening. And you're right... this place is a blast!
I think there's a complexity to what goes on here that's slow to unfold when you're new. Been here just 4 mos. (well, I lurked occasionally before that) and I'm still stumbling across unexpected layers like a multi-level maze. Often very subtle clues when explored have lead me to a different room or level of the maze... searching past threads, checking out profile pages, PM's behind the scene, seeing what posters' hot buttons are in the different forums, learning the etiquette, seeing who's reasonable, who's worth sparring with and who's best avoided. And there's a lot of interesting music. But mainly I keep coming back because whatever it is that's going on here, it usually leaves me with a good feeling that carries over when I shut off the internet box and start recording.

Tim
 
this mixing forum has been a completely different world for me than the rest of this board. while i've learned a lot across the rest of the forums with regards to "technical knowledge", this is the one that has made me *grow* the most.

i've been a member here for a couple years now and i only recently posted my first mp3. i got some good feedback. it's nice to know that what i'm hearing and what other people are hearing either jive or they don't......and it's nice seeing that there's a SOLID community in here that works together for the betterment of everyone's music. and i'll be posting another tune here shortly--just gotta fix a couple issues in the mix first. ;)

and like someone said earlier in this thread.....there's some DAMN good music being made around these parts.


cheers,
wade

PS--do y'all copyright your music (meaning, officially with the forms and all) before you post mp3s here?
 
mrface2112 said:
PS--do y'all copyright your music (meaning, officially with the forms and all) before you post mp3s here?
I never have, but no one would want to steal any of mine... :eek:
Ed
 
PS--do y'all copyright your music (meaning, officially with the forms and all) before you post mp3s here?

(In the voice of Lloyd Christmas) I think I just... had... an idea.... yeah... I did...

I'm going to start a future Rumble by putting up a backing track everybody can solo over. But before it goes up I'll copyright it and put an entertainment attorney on retainer. Then at the conclusion of the Rumble entries, anybody that played better than me is gonna get a massive lawsuit for recording and distributing my copyrighted work without the required mechanical license.

Seriously, I've copyrighted a few things and probably would register anything I wrote that I thought I'd have any long term interest in. I don't think the forum members here are likely to go off and present your ideas as their own, but this is a public place and less than half of the viewers are members, so it's probably smart at times to protect yourself. It's a very easy process also.

Tim
 
Last edited:
Timothy Lawler said:
(In the voice of Lloyd Christmas) I think I just... had... an idea.... yeah... I did...

I'm going to start a future Rumble by putting up a backing track everybody can solo over. But before it goes up I'll copyright it and put an entertainment attorney on retainer. Then at the conclusion of the Rumble entries, anybody that played better than me is gonna get a massive lawsuit for recording and distributing my copyrighted work without the required mechanical license.

(LOL)
THAT is friggin' hilarious !!!!

Good one.

I'm not so great at lead guitar; maybe I could do a kazoo solo that blows everyone else's solos away. . .
 
Incanus said:
(LOL)
THAT is friggin' hilarious !!!!

Good one.

I'm not so great at lead guitar; maybe I could do a kazoo solo that blows everyone else's solos away. . .

Then let's get to crackin, my man. We need more kazoo on here....
Ed
 
(GREAT STUFF COMING OUT IN THIS THREAD!.....)

"Just wondering... How has hanging out in the mixing clinic affected your own music making? Helped, hurt, motivated, inspired, insulted, educated, challenged, directed, coached...? What best describes how the interaction here had changed the way you work, the audio results you get, and maybe even the way you listen to music?" - Lawler

Well, i've been here for a week or two :D

And so far, i love the vibe. The only song so far i posted here, was finished. Or so i thought. Some of the criticism actually made me think "what the heck! I'm a free artist. I'm not "signed". I give my music away for free (well, for non-commercial use anyways). I can do what the hell i like. If i want to remix a track 15 times and publish all of them on my site, then i can do that. No label is holding it's heavy hand over me." So i'll probably bloody remix that track with some of the criticism from here in mind :D

I came here while trying to find likeminded people; it remains to be seen whether there are any, but this is a very useful place anyway and i hope to contribute to the scene!...




...
 
I have yet to really hear a genre were poor timing was excusable... -xfinsterx

Comedy Rock? Pisstake Punk? And you can't say no to that :D

Popstars wannabees failing auditions on competition shows are loved by many..... the worse they are, the more downloads on the P2P networks!!!....



....
 
7string said:
It goes back to the 'if it sounds good to you it is right' thing. When I first got here I posted a few things and had them ripped to shreds, but I THOUGH THEY SOUNDED GOOD! So apparently that doesn't apply. It should be 'if it sounds good to other people' or something. Anyway, I learned a few things and remixed and got them sounding good to other people. Not necessarily to me. One song I did was completely changed using suggestions from this board and to me it ruined the song and doesn't sound anything like the original intent that I had. But everybody else liked it!

It just can be confusing until you read enough and learn a little bit. But, I think, like anything you have to pick and choose what you want to listen to.
Mixing is subjective just like any other art form. Although there are some loose rules to follow to get a mix deamed good enough for release. Apart from that let the creativity flow instead of following the flock. B the black sheep.
 
ecktronic said:
Mixing is subjective just like any other art form. Although there are some loose rules to follow to get a mix deamed good enough for release. Apart from that let the creativity flow instead of following the flock. B the black sheep.

Which is one of the greatest lessons that I've learned here. And if you ask my family they will tell you that I have been the black sheep for years! ;)
 
Back
Top