Q for tapers: What's a good stereo pair for live recording?

[Roger_D]

I know most of the people here do close-miking in a studio, so mic reviews that say things like "good for snare bottom" or "sounds great on bassoon" are interesting, but I'm mainly recording live rock bands in small clubs with just a single pair of SDCs and a Zoom H4n, and I can't seem to find any good advice for mics that are known to work well for this application. I'd like to spend no more than $450 for the pair -- hopefully less. (I pick that number because I had decided at one point to buy a pair of Rode NT5s, but now I'm hesitant because of two reviews that mentioned a certain lack of detail in the midrange.) Any suggestions -- even if it's just general advice about what characteristics such a mic should have?

 

[moresound]

I do the same thing for bands live with a H4N in 4 channel mode the 2 on board mics and 2 SM81s with great results and this is recording anything from metal to bluegrass.
So try ebay for a used pair or one at a time.

 

[mshilarious]

Depends on the particulars of the recording situation. Ideally, you would want a matched pair of small diaphragm mics with interchangeable capsules. The other consideration is how you need to mount the mics--stage lip, flown, stand, your head, etc.

They kinda specialize in these issues here:

www.taperssection.com

 

[Roger_D]

I'm typically recording about 10 to 15 feet from the stage if I can. The main PA speakers are usually immediately beside or above the stage, but sometimes they are farther off to the sides, and sometimes there are many PA speakers around the room. In the smaller clubs, many groups only put the singers and maybe keyboards through the PA, while some groups (metal and punk usually) mic the drums and/or guitar cabs, too. In some clubs, I can't get closer than maybe 20 feet because of the dance floor. So, in other words, you get a lot of different situations doing live club taping. I mount the mics on a stereo bar (usually X/Y pattern, or maybe ORTF if the PA speakers are widely separated, but that picks up a lot more room noise). I put them on a standard mic stand but with a gooseneck attached to get a little above the crowd.

Thanks for the link -- looks like good stuff.

 

[Roger_D]

I do the same thing for bands live with a H4N in 4 channel mode the 2 on board mics ...

How do you position the external mics relative to the H4n? I haven't tried 4-channel recording because I assumed there would be a problem with phasing and/or timing if all 4 mics were getting the same basic sounds at different times. (I bought a 2-XLR-to-1/8" stereo adapter cable with the idea that I could plug a pair of SM57s into the H4n's 1/8" jack - which does work - while putting a pair of condensers into the XLR jacks, but that was before I realized the timing problems that would occur, so I never tried it live. I've also gotten an AudioBuddy preamp to work into that 1/8" jack, so I could also run 4 condensers if there's a good way to position the mics.)

 

[moresound]

Most of the time if I'm running sound for the bands (about 95% of the time) for I own a sound company as well, I take a few aux feeds - there are usually a few open for me to do this along with the on board mics of the H4N then go back to the studio and pop it right into pro tools clean it up a bit and tada not a bad live recording.
Maybe you can get to know the sound engineers at different venues to be able to do this. Ive been as far as 100' out at FOH put my board feed in (pre fader you don't want post fader)and just the on board mics of the H4N and together they make a good recording.
Other times the 2 SM81s don't have to be anywhere near the H4N Ive ran 50' XLR before and again out towards the FOH position try for center I use ta do x/y but now only doing ORTF - sounds a bit better and if there is audience noise... Hey it's a live recording, If there is phasing problems fix the latency in pro tools (or what ever your using) just line them back up.
Get a tripod mic stand with a expandable boom arm that way you can get those mics or the H4N about 10'-12' in the air.
Ive recently seen a promo picture (from either guitar center or musician friend) of the H4N - along with all the other portable mini recorders(they are selling new accessories! one thing in particular is a dead cat wind screen that fits a must have for those on board mics out side with just a small breeze can ruin your recording) mounted in the center of a stereo bar there's your x/y and 2 mics out on the ends of the stereo bar in ORTF then mounted on a mic stand looked cool but I haven't tried that one yet.

 

[pohaku]

Some good suggestions here. A pair of used AT-4051bs or AT-4041s would also work well.

 

[moresound]

I found the promo picture and all the goodies its from BSW man I almost tossed that small catalog out.
Try www.bswusa.com
Let me know if you find it, if not Ill see what I can do cause a picture is worth a thousand words.
Also the ATs that pohaku speaks of would be a good choice!
Its funny in the add they suggest Behringer C-4s - I think for the most powerful pocket recorder they would have chosen something more than a pair of mics that you can get new for about 50 bucks.

 

[darrin_h2000]

I found the promo picture and all the goodies its from BSW man I almost tossed that small catalog out.
Try www.bswusa.com
Let me know if you find it, if not Ill see what I can do cause a picture is worth a thousand words.
Also the ATs that pohaku speaks of would be a good choice!
Its funny in the add they suggest Behringer C-4s - I think for the most powerful pocket recorder they would have chosen something more than a pair of mics that you can get new for about 50 bucks.

Its kinda funny when that $50 pair of SDC mics is still thier highest profit margin....lol.

 

[Richard Monroe]

I do this with an H4n and a pair of AKG C2000B's (which don't look like it, but *are* SDC's) with excellent results. I tried using the onboard mics but ditched those tracks, as the C2000B's are just so much better.-Richie

 

[moresound]

even if you blend the onboard mics at a lower volume or is that still ca - ca

 

[moresound]

Ya darrin_h2000.. that would mean they spend a few bucks per mic!
WHERE DOES THE MADNESS END

 

[Shadow_7]

I use Avenson STO-2's. But it depends on what you're going for. Do you want to include the audience in the mix? Or isolate your mics from that. Do you have choice placement? Sounds like you don't 20+ feet can be challenging for most mics to do well. Especially with distractions (fans) at much closer distances. I tend to elevate my mics to TRY to achieve a better mix of group to audience. But it really depends on usage. Rehearsals (sans audience) almost always get a better recording.

If you can get a live feed from the house, that should handle most things for you. Although some of those things are not properly shielded from GSM handshakes of cell phones and stuff like that. So it depends on if results are required or not. And even if you don't use their feed, you'll pick up their broadcast of the interference over their PAs.

Mics can be problematic in that situation. Handling noise, proximity effect, and other things. A lot of camcorder specific mics are for recording a talking head in a noisy parking lot. Side and rear rejection to the max. And some shock mount type stuff to isolate them from camcorder noises (focus, zoom, tape deck, cooling fan, and other things depending on the camcorder).

I long for Beyer MC-910 and MC-930. And/or Senn. MKH 8020 or MKH 8040. Crown Sass-P MK II is a consideration. It was actually designed with this purpose in mind. But a bit bulky. Common though and cheap on eBay. Very similar to my STO-2's in some respects. But not perfect, the STO-2's are great for the music part, but the spoken word (sans mic) doesn't translate well over the distractions when you don't have proximity. Which you're not going to have if you keep your mics / audio setup at the same location as the camcorder. Baring a wide angle or fish eye lens to close the gap anyway. And a decent field recorder with 24 bit and/or DSD options for an increased dynamic range.

 

[Richard Monroe]

even if you blend the onboard mics at a lower volume or is that still ca - ca

The obvious point is- the less onboard mics I use, the better it sounds. They don't totally suck, but they are cheap SD electret mics, comparable to the average one point stereo mic for a camcorder. Two good mics is much better than a whole array of not-so-good mics. The C2000B's are perfect for this, because they are good enough to be *obviously* better, but not so expensive that I have to slash my wrists if one of them gets damaged. I've got a pair of Neumann's, but I don't have enough money to use them for remote recording. I also have a pair of Oktava MC012's I could use, but the AKG's simply sound better-in fact, very similar to the KM184's.-Richie

 

[Shadow_7]

Some samples of the STO-2's in action. Highly processed, but in the spirit of what you seem to be wanting to do. Baring the acoustic group (no electronics). Plus the outdoor venue. My levels were entirely too low, and I was a bit further from the action that I normally am.

Merry Tuba Christmas

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MOAe49kCcA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PAKgwM9E3Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mD0SdmDXiIM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHAf6Mw6MC4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdiI4UIT944

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yo8iGDIAIIM

I'm on dialup, so sorry for the very low bitrate upload. But hey 48 minutes of video + music over dialup in roughly 24 hours....

 

[darrin_h2000]

The obvious point is- the less onboard mics I use, the better it sounds. They don't totally suck, but they are cheap SD electret mics, comparable to the average one point stereo mic for a camcorder. Two good mics is much better than a whole array of not-so-good mics. The C2000B's are perfect for this, because they are good enough to be *obviously* better, but not so expensive that I have to slash my wrists if one of them gets damaged. I've got a pair of Neumann's, but I don't have enough money to use them for remote recording. I also have a pair of Oktava MC012's I could use, but the AKG's simply sound better-in fact, very similar to the KM184's.-Richie

Are the tollerances on AKG mics as good af AT mics?...I know the AT40 series can pair up right off the shelf almost...but if I bought another C2000B would it be a matched pair...like my AT3035 mics?...Id think that AKG might be able to boast this too.