Punk and Rock albums that can be used as reference for mixing?

[the kelvinator]

I want to know what particular albums, you guys consider as "good" reference for mixing punk and rock songs. Some says that there were alot of badly mixed (or recorded) punk albums from the 80's like Husker Du or Black Flag (not really sure about these examples actually, maybe someone here can confirm) and sometimes the drums doesn't sound good like in some hardcore records. On the other hand during the 90's there were lots of commercial sounding albums that took their influence from punk. So, I'm curious what you guys think about them. Which do you prefer. Let me give examples:

1) Dookie, Greenday - Is this a good reference for mixing? Would you consider other albums not as commercial sounding as this? (Altho commercial sound is probably dabatable).

2) Nirvana - Is Nevermind production so slick? Or was Bleach just poorly recorded?

3) Loveless, My Bloody Valentine - I'm not sure if the guitars were more upfront and the drums were a little bit drowned?

I know I'm citing mainly bands from the 90's, so if you can give examples from 70's and 80's rock (i.e. AC/DC) and punk it will be highly appreciated. "Bad" examples are also welcome. Thanks.

 

[JDOD]

I want to know what particular albums, you guys consider as "good" reference for mixing punk and rock songs. Some says that there were alot of badly mixed (or recorded) punk albums from the 80's like Husker Du or Black Flag (not really sure about these examples actually, maybe someone here can confirm) and sometimes the drums doesn't sound good like in some hardcore records. On the other hand during the 90's there were lots of commercial sounding albums that took their influence from punk. So, I'm curious what you guys think about them. Which do you prefer. Let me give examples:

1) Dookie, Greenday - Is this a good reference for mixing? Would you consider other albums not as commercial sounding as this? (Altho commercial sound is probably dabatable).

2) Nirvana - Is Nevermind production so slick? Or was Bleach just poorly recorded?

3) Loveless, My Bloody Valentine - I'm not sure if the guitars were more upfront and the drums were a little bit drowned?

I know I'm citing mainly bands from the 90's, so if you can give examples from 70's and 80's rock (i.e. AC/DC) and punk it will be highly appreciated. "Bad" examples are also welcome. Thanks.

Nevermind is well mixed, although I think the final mix of In Utero is a really good mix - I know they really struggled to get that right and was reworked quite a few times before it was finished.

I think The Holy Bible is a really well mixed album from the early to mid 90s. Some of the recorded tracks on it aren't of the best quality 'cos it was recorded on a relatively low budget (my mainstream band standards) but everything sits really well in the mix and sounds great.

 

[the kelvinator]

Nevermind is well mixed, although I think the final mix of In Utero is a really good mix - I know they really struggled to get that right and was reworked quite a few times before it was finished.

I think The Holy Bible is a really well mixed album from the early to mid 90s. Some of the recorded tracks on it aren't of the best quality 'cos it was recorded on a relatively low budget (my mainstream band standards) but everything sits really well in the mix and sounds great.

Thanks, JDOD for the suggestion. I will check out The Holy Bible.

I haven't listened to Nirvana in a long time. The Best of the Box was probably the last album of theirs that I listened to regularly for some time. The more I think about it, those songs and early demos appealed to me more than their studio albums, particularly Nevermind.

I should probably listen again to In Utero. What I remember about it, is that there is recommended treble and bass knob settings drawn on the cassette (tape) inlay! One of my friend noted that he couldn't hear the bass (but we were playing an old tape in an old boom box, then, so..)

 

[JDOD]

Thanks, JDOD for the suggestion. I will check out The Holy Bible.

I haven't listened to Nirvana in a long time. The Best of the Box was probably the last album of theirs that I listened to regularly for some time. The more I think about it, those songs and early demos appealed to me more than their studio albums, particularly Nevermind.

I should probably listen again to In Utero. What I remember about it, is that there is recommended treble and bass knob settings drawn on the cassette (tape) inlay! One of my friend noted that he couldn't hear the bass (but we were playing an old tape in an old boom box, then, so..)

I think Radio Friendly Unit Shifter has an absolutely great mix.

 

[Greg_L]

I know I'm citing mainly bands from the 90's, so if you can give examples from 70's and 80's rock (i.e. AC/DC) and punk it will be highly appreciated. "Bad" examples are also welcome. Thanks.

AC/DC's Back in Black is a great example of an awesomely mixed album from any genre. Appetite for Destruction is good too.

You want a 70s punk album? Ramones Road to Ruin. I'm still convinced that was the best sounding Ramones album.

If you want modern punk....anything from the Fat Wreck label is mixed pretty awesome IMO.

 

[the kelvinator]

AC/DC's Back in Black is a great example of an awesomely mixed album from any genre. Appetite for Destruction is good too.

You want a 70s punk album? Ramones Road to Ruin. I'm still convinced that was the best sounding Ramones album.

If you want modern punk....anything from the Fat Wreck label is mixed pretty awesome IMO.

Thanks Greg_L, I'll check Back In Black. I'm not sure I can stand Appetite though.

But isn't Ramones' album sound's already dated by today's standards?

@Fat Wreck: I like NOFX So Long and Punk In Drublic. So I guess those will do.

 

[Greg_L]

But isn't Ramones' album sound's already dated by today's standards?

You asked for examples from the 70s and 80s. "Road to Ruin" was released in 1978.

Some of their albums sound "dated", but today's standards aren't exactly better....unless you like everything to sound fake, robotic, and heavily compressed. And that's fine too. But I mention "Road to Ruin" because it's sort of an anomaly from 70s punk albums, and their own albums. Most 70s punk albums sounded pretty rough. They had their charm and many were awesome, but they sounded rough compared to productions from the same time period from other genres. But "Road to Ruin" is super clean, very punchy, everything is right there in your face. It was like a modern mix in a vintage era, and it sounds incredible to me. The drums, guitars, bass, vocals, it's all just right on that album. Check it out for yourself.

I think Fat Wreck dictates that every band they record use drum replacement because just about every Fat Wreck recording has the exact same drum sound, but it's still a good mix if you're looking for modern punk mixes.

 

[Steenamaroo]

Appetite is an incredible well recorded and mixed record.
It'd be worth sitting through, if even just to take notes to learn a little something.
You don't have to enjoy each style or the songs.

I don't know about bleach but nevermind is recorded and performed very well!
Sure, butch big is no slouch either, but those guys had their shit down.
It's straight out of the 'Greg handbook'. They got together and rehearsed like it was a 9-5. 8 hours a day for months before Butch Vig even met them.

A massive part of the sound is just down to the fact that they had it nailed, and the rest is Butch knowing what to do and what not to do.
I'm not aware of him doing anything particularly fancy - Just his job, pretty much.


Banging on about it a bit here, but try to look for records as references for recording, rather than references for mixing.

Edit: For all I know you've already got your shit down....Just saying.

 

[JDOD]

I don't know about bleach but nevermind is recorded and performed very well!
Sure, butch big is no slouch either, but those guys had their shit down.
It's straight out of the 'Greg handbook'. They got together and rehearsed like it was a 9-5. 8 hours a day for months before Butch Vig even met them.

I think you're right there. If the band are tight as fuck and know exactly what they are doing it completely minimises the need for any turd polishing later... unlike me, I usually write while I record so end up doing millions of takes of fucking everything!

 

[Greg_L]

Appetite is an incredible well recorded and mixed record.
It'd be worth sitting through, if even just to take notes to learn a little something.
You don't have to enjoy each style or the songs.

Right. That album was also sort of anomaly among it's peers in that era. It was clean, and minimal, and pretty dry compared to the overproduced slick reverb rock shit of the 80s. Appetite is a fantastically engineered and produced album IMO. I happen to like the songs, but it's worth a sit through just for reference listening.

 

[the kelvinator]

You asked for examples from the 70s and 80s. "Road to Ruin" was released in 1978.

Some of their albums sound "dated", but today's standards aren't exactly better....unless you like everything to sound fake, robotic, and heavily compressed.

I don't know, maybe I was referring to the sound of the first album. And I've already listened to the first four albums and initially Road To Ruin was my favorite. I have to listen again with "mixing" in mind.

And no, I don't like fake, robotic and heavily compressed.

I think Fat Wreck dictates that every band they record use drum replacement because just about every Fat Wreck recording has the exact same drum sound, but it's still a good mix if you're looking for modern punk mixes.

LOL. I read somewhere that all the Fat Wreck bands sound the same. Ditto with the Epitaph bands. As if each label has a signature punk sound.

 

[Greg_L]

Check out The Minutemen too. Double Nickels on the Dime. Now that is some sparse shit. They recorded their songs live, in order of appearance on the album so they wouldn't have to splice tape for mastering! Lol. But for a little nothing three piece, they REALLY had their shit together. Good sounding albums.

 

[JDOD]

Which label were Guttermouth on? They were Epitaph weren't they?

Just listening to Road to Ruin at my desk, with production and mixing in mind. It is well done.

 

[Steenamaroo]

Right. That album was also sort of anomaly among it's peers in that era. It was clean, and minimal, and pretty dry compared to the overproduced slick reverb rock shit of the 80s. Appetite is a fantastically engineered and produced album IMO. I happen to like the songs, but it's worth a sit through just for reference listening.

That's pretty cool. I wasn't sure what you'd make of it.
I'm just a sucker for GnR just 'cos I grew up with it, you know...

If you wanted to make an album to kick hair metal the fuck out of the way, you couldn't do a whole lot better than appetite.

Most of the world-beating albums have that quality. Some impact they had at the time.
Nevermind is another example. Sure, IMO kurt was just a whiney depressive mediocre singer, but he/they were exactly what the youth at the time needed or wanted.
Love 'em or hate 'em, the time was right for never mind and the impact can't be denied.

Kinda running off topic, though. The key thing about those bands, IMO, is that they could do their shit live and sound just as good.
I get that they were often loose as fuck live, or even a total mess, but keep in mind that was part of thing and probably a product of being messed up 99% of the time. lol.
They were all very capable and very well rehearsed.


Greg, I've probably asked before but your take on spaghetti incident would be interesting.
They shared a lot of heroes with you, I guess.
I always felt that their more mainstream covers at very least equalled the originals - knocking on heaven's door, Live and Let die, Sympathy for the Devil, but I don't think I knew a single song from Spaghetti before I heard it.

 

[JDOD]

Sure, IMO kurt was just a whiney depressive mediocre singer, but he/they were exactly what the youth at the time needed or wanted.
Love 'em or hate 'em, the time was right for never mind and the impact can't be denied.

Kinda running off topic, though. The key thing about those bands, IMO, is that they could do their shit live and sound just as good.

Speaking of which - this is a really fucking good live version of Radio Friendly Unit Shifter
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zagAeZ5eH94
Given that its from the era when Kurt was massively fucked up, its even more impressive.

 

[RAMI]

IMO kurt was just a whiney depressive mediocre singer,

I used to think that, too, as a casual listener. But as time went on and I listened more, I've come to regard him as a great rock vocalist. He has a nice raunch to his voice, it's got attitude, and his delivery is great. Some songs, like the chorus of "In Bloom" are pure rock, in my opinion.

 

[Steenamaroo]

I used to think that, too, as a casual listener. But as time went on and I listened more, I've come to regard him as a great rock vocalist. He has a nice raunch to his voice, it's got attitude, and his delivery is great. Some songs, like the chorus of "In Bloom" are pure rock, in my opinion.

I go hot and cold with him.
I think it's just the massive hype that puts me off a little. It's like yeah, he's good but not THAT good.

I was probably a little harsh before, in fairness. lol.

In Bloom, in particular, is pretty fucking solid! I did a piece about it at tech - It's just so simple and straight forward but so rocking too!
The vocals, and harmonies, are pretty incredible for what they are.

 

[the kelvinator]

If you wanted to make an album to kick hair metal the fuck out of the way, you couldn't do a whole lot better than appetite.

You're maybe an anomaly...oops, I mean you're part of a minority who likes GnR, don't like hair metal, and doesn't hate grunge. Haha. From my experience in the interweb. Those who dig 80's metal, including GnR, hates Grunge for killing, dumb mothafuckers they are.

No, Kurt isn't a mediocre singer, whiner, yes, probably. He can't sing like Axl, but Axl can't sing like Kurt either.

But going back on topic, Ok I will listen to Appetite..but the brain works in weird ways so, I'll just imagine they're not wearing those silly costumes.

 

[Steenamaroo]

You're maybe an anomaly...oops, I mean you're part of a minority who likes GnR, don't like hair metal, and doesn't hate grunge. Haha. From my experience in the interweb. Those who dig 80's metal, including GnR, hates Grunge for killing, dumb mothafuckers they are.

No, Kurt isn't a mediocre singer, whiner, yes, probably. He can't sing like Axl, but Axl can't sing like Kurt either.

But going back on topic, Ok I will listen to Appetite..but the brain works in weird ways so, I'll just imagine they're not wearing those silly costumes.

It's perspective, I guess.
I don't see Guns and Roses as hair metal at all because that really was their point. They were the anti hair metal, or at least anti a certain brand of it.
I know when they were younger Axl had the big gay hair and all, but they never looked like women, you know, and they never went for the simple feel good cheese song idea.
Not in the same ways as White Snake or Poison or whatever.

Heh, maybe that's bollox and I just like them! haha. I can't compare every rose to patience, or paradise city to fallen angel, though.

In addition, my favourite records are Illusions 1+2, so that probably says a bit more about me and what I like.


I'm more inclined to lump GnR in with the group that killed of a certain kind of metal, see?

 

[the kelvinator]

Check out The Minutemen too. Double Nickels on the Dime. Now that is some sparse shit. They recorded their songs live, in order of appearance on the album so they wouldn't have to splice tape for mastering! Lol. But for a little nothing three piece, they REALLY had their shit together. Good sounding albums.

I think I've listened to this before. So, you're saying they recorded it on cheap. But executed it well.