ProTools or Logic Pro?

[DinosaurDavidB.]

These are the two programs I've been considering, but haven't decided yet. I'm interested in hearing what the pros and cons are of each. Particularly from (but not limited to) anyone who's used both. Thanks in advance.

 

[MessianicDreams]

These are the two programs I've been considering, but haven't decided yet. I'm interested in hearing what the pros and cons are of each. Particularly from (but not limited to) anyone who's used both. Thanks in advance.

I think it would perhaps be easier to state what you're planning on using your DAW for so we could tell you what will be the most appropriate!

 

[gecko zzed]

The pros and cons will be interesting, but will not tell you the whole story. An important consideration is not what the various programs do, but how they do it.

In the end, most will be capable of the same things. Like, most word processing applications do the same things.

Our brains are all wired slightly differently, and we like to do things in different ways. The application that most suits our way of thinking about and doing things is the one that's likely to be most productive for us.

On the writing side, though Lotus Wordpro may not have as many features as MS Word, I've always preferred it, because, for me, it seems more logical and intuitive. For someone else, the reverse may be the case.

I've been using Logic for many years, and I like it because of its midi strength, and because it does things I want it to in the way I mostly expect them to be done. Possibly, this is partly due to familiarity, and that were I to have started out with a different application, my preferences may have differed.

But in the early days, I did fiddle with Cubase, Cakewalk and similar, roughly concurrently, and found them to be more frustrating.

Somehow you need to be able to try out your choices, and see if you can figure which is most likely to match your way of thinking.

 

[dgatwood]

These are the two programs I've been considering, but haven't decided yet. I'm interested in hearing what the pros and cons are of each. Particularly from (but not limited to) anyone who's used both. Thanks in advance.

I would tend to recommend either Logic or Digital Performer, personally. Unless you're a pro studio who has clients that actually require it to make it easier for them to transport their mixes to an editing house, it really doesn't make a lot of sense, IMHO.

First, I'll note that I am not a Pro Tools user, so my opinion is based on secondhand accounts. I've been told a fair number of horror stories from people who do regarding OS compatibility and not being able to update the OS for fear it will break Pro Tools.

Then, there's the whole nonstandard plug-in model. They don't support any of the standard plug-in formats, so you are out extra money to buy adapter software that probably won't work as well as a natively-supported plug-in.

I'm also not too inclined to support a company that locks an application to specific audio interface hardware versions, forcing you to buy new hardware periodically just to get software fixes.

 

[DinosaurDavidB.]

In answer to the first question, I'm going to be setting up a home studio -- probably in a spare bedroom. I used to have a spare bedroom studio with an 8-track (non PC) Roland DAW. On that system, I recorded/produced/engineered my own guitar-based music -- which I do as a creative outlet (i.e. for fun, not profit). However, I moved to NYC and have lived in a small apt for the last few years, and when I did, I put all my recording gear into storage. But I'm going to be moving again, and to a space that should have enough room to have a studio again. This time, I want to go with a software based system.

Use cases:

I want to be able to record my own music again. As I am familiar with general recording concepts, this is fairly straight forward. For me, the learning curve will mostly be about learning the ins and outs of a new software.

My wife is a working vocalist and piano player. She wants to be able to receive tracks from clients, bring it up in the software, and record vocals on top of them.

She also will want to be able to learn how to record her piano and vocals so she can record her own music.

But while she's done a lot of sessions, she really is more "the talent" type who comes in and sings, and leaves. She has no experience doing the engineering side. The learning curve for her is gonna be much steeper, but I'd like for her to at least learn the basics of opening a track and recording her vocals on top of it, so that I don't have to be involved every time she wants to do anything. For those reasons, I'm leaning a bit more toward Logic and the Apple interface, as I think aspects of it will be easier (probably for both of us).

 

[Joseph Hanna]

First, I'll note that I am not a Pro Tools user, so my opinion is based on secondhand accounts.

I'm sure it's very well intended but usually horribly inaccurate.

Pro Tools historically has been ahead of the curve when it comes to the Mac OS developments. Of course over the last few years Digi has taken a hit with advanced OS sketches because it's in Apples best interest to protect their attempt to re-code Logic.

As far as the final days of XP and into Vista you will NOT find a cross OS platform company that in total has been any better. That is to say no more or less mired than anyone else.

Then, there's the whole nonstandard plug-in model. They don't support any of the standard plug-in formats, so you are out extra money to buy adapter software that probably won't work as well as a natively-supported plug-in.

RTAS (real time audio suite) is far from a non-standard format. No less standard than MAS or VST or AU. An argument CAN be made that for some 3rd party code writers RTAS protocol remains an enigma but virtually ALL major 3rd party plug-in companies continue to write for RTAS.

RTAS IS as standard as it gets.

The fact that VST is more of an open architecture is a double edged sword. It certainly allows for a broader choice of plug-ins but also opens the door for lower standards in code.

All of that said Logic is as good a native based DAW solution as there is. If someone was starting from scratch it's a great choice as of course is Pro Tools. The truth is (as I've said SO many times before) all of the current DAW landscapes are far deeper than the great majority of users will ever comprehend.

No compelling pragmatic reason one way or another to choose one over the other.

 

[dgatwood]

RTAS (real time audio suite) is far from a non-standard format. No less standard than MAS or VST or AU. An argument CAN be made that for some 3rd party code writers RTAS protocol remains an enigma but virtually ALL major 3rd party plug-in companies continue to write for RTAS.

RTAS IS as standard as it gets.

It is a proprietary specification that no DAW other than Pro Tools uses, so no, it isn't as standard as it gets.... And every plug-in I've seen thus far costs more as an RTAS plug-in precisely because it is a standard that only is supported by one vendor. It's a lot of extra work for plug-in developers for a relatively small market (compared with VST on the PC or AU on the Mac).

 

[Joseph Hanna]

It is a proprietary specification that no DAW other than Pro Tools uses, so no, it isn't as standard as it gets....

MAS is proprietary. AU is proprietary. VST is proprietary. RTAS is proprietary. There IS no universal plug-in code (at least without a wrapper). I suppose the argument could be in defining the word "standard" but VST (I guess that's what your calling a standard) is NOT the industry definition of standard. In fact for years it was Steinberg only.

And every plug-in I've seen thus far costs more as an RTAS plug-in precisely because it is a standard that only is supported by one vendor.

This is completely wrong. Atmosphere, or Trilogy or TL Space or Waves or EZ Drummer or Native-Instruments or ect, ect is exactly the same cost be it MAS, AU, VST or RTAS

I've looked through the Sweetwater web site of plug-ins and I could not find a SINGLE instance of an RTAS plug-in costing more than it's VST/MAS/AU counterpart. Not one.

I'm willing to be wrong here but please name me one plug-in (one) that cost more for RTAS than VST. I'm pretty confident it doesn't exist.

It's a lot of extra work for plug-in developers for a relatively small market (compared with VST on the PC or AU on the Mac).

HUH? It takes work to write code..period. The bottom line engine determines how much work it will take to port to a protocol. Pro Tools and conversely RTAS plug-ins represents much more than a relatively small market. I think Digidesign is still the market leader in sales by a basquillion miles. If i were writing code I would be fighting for Digi's approval as it would increase my bottom line exponentially.

Again as I said before this (as it applies to the original poster) is NOT an endorsement of Pro Tools. That in and of itself is fool hearty. All the current DAW's are deep enough and in some cases DAW's that support VST plug-ins might be a better choice.

That said bad info is bad info.

 

[dgatwood]

This is completely wrong. Atmosphere, or Trilogy or TL Space or Waves or EZ Drummer or Native-Instruments or ect, ect is exactly the same cost be it MAS, AU, VST or RTAS

My bad. It was TDM that costs more. Never mind that part.

My other points about it locking you into a very limited choice of hardware (at a steep cost premium compared with equivalent hardware from other manufacturers) still applies, though.

 

[Joseph Hanna]

My bad. It was TDM that costs more. Never mind that part.

There are some cases in which TDM does cost more. The coding to a card based system is more time consuming for third party developers than coding to native based system only. In other words if I want to code a new reverb for the market (The Joseph Hanna Verb) as a company I have to devote twice as much resources to do so. It cost me more to manufacture and as business 101 dictates I need to charge more for it.

It's paramount to note here that it is in fact those third parties developers NOT Digidesign who are responsible for the higher costs and in virtually all cases it's warranted.

One need only factor in the cost of third party card based processing (UAD) and your cheaper VST equation also goes out the window. Of cousre there is nothing wrong with the VST protocol and I'm not saying otherwise.

Further. All TDM system can run native based plug-ins as well (RTAS) so theoretically one could equip their TDM systems with plug-ins that are absolutely not a penny more than VST

My other points about it locking you into a very limited choice of hardware (at a steep cost premium compared with equivalent hardware from other manufacturers) still applies, though.

This is also way off base. The current 003 is NOT "a steep cost premium compared with equivalent hardware from other manufacturers".

For example the 003 is roughly $1100.00 with both hardware and software. Compare that to three box's that mirror the 003. The Motu 828 $750.00, The Presonus Firestudio $500.00 and the TC Electronic 16 in and out box (name escapes me) $550.00. Add to that a copy of Cubase at $600.00 and the 003 is cheaper than 2 of the 3 solutions and the same cost as the 3rd.

Similar comparisons can be made for the M-Box.

The "being locked in" argument always puzzles me. As a consumer you do the research and base your decisions on that hopefully informed conclusion. For most home recording folk the 003 (as a hardware box) is more than they'll ever be able to master. If however it's not as a consumer simply make another choice. Digi doesn't hide what their hardware is capable of. If you purchased an 003 and suddenly feel Digi has trapped you shame on you not Digi,

There is no "step premium" here.

dgatwood I'm honestly not trying to pick bones here but the Digi Black Helicopter conspiracy theorists are so poorly fueled with factual information it gets frustrating to hear especially as it is endlessly spewed.

As I've said before no attempt here to promote Digi. I have recommended other DAW's to folks when that other DAW made sense for him or her.

That said bad info is bad info.

 

[dgatwood]

This is also way off base. The current 003 is NOT "a steep cost premium compared with equivalent hardware from other manufacturers".

For example the 003 is roughly $1100.00 with both hardware and software.

The rack version is roughly $1100.00. It is approximately equivalent to an 8Pre, which costs $550. That's roughly double. The same goes for the control surface version when compared with equivalent products.

Compare that to three box's that mirror the 003. The Motu 828 $750.00, The Presonus Firestudio $500.00 and the TC Electronic 16 in and out box (name escapes me) $550.00. Add to that a copy of Cubase at $600.00 and the 003 is cheaper than 2 of the 3 solutions and the same cost as the 3rd.

The 828 is a 192 kHz setup. The 003 is just 96 kHz. Therefore, that's not a fair comparison. Also, it comes with AudioDesk (assuming you're on a Mac). In many ways, AudioDesk is more capable than Pro Tools LE that comes with the 003 at the price you mention. Among other things, AudioDesk has plug-in delay compensation and no track limit. LE has no such compensation and caps out arbitrarily at 32 active tracks. Of course, AudioDesk doesn't do MIDI, so there's a definite tradeoff. In any case, the 828 is comparable to the 003 without buying any additional software (at least on the Mac).

The Firestudio comes with Cubase LE. Again, the Digi 003 product you are talking about comes with Pro Tools LE, which is a limited version of Pro Tools that is actually less powerful than Cubase LE. Pro Tools LE is limited to 32 tracks, and lacks critical features like plugin delay compensation. Cubase LE has plugin delay compensation and a 48 track count. To get up to that 48 track limit from Pro Tools LE, you have to go out and buy the ProTools LE Music Production Toolkit for another $495.

Pro Tools LE isn't remotely comparable to Cubase SX, Digital Performer, or Logic. PTLE has no plugin delay compensation, a 96 kHz maximum sample rate, no surround sound capabilities, a limit of 32 tracks, no import or export of OMF or AAF (which means that if you ever want to move from Pro Tools LE to another software package, you have to buy the Digitranslator package for... yup, you guessed it... $495), etc.

So you're paying a couple hundred dollars more than you would for an equivalent system with SX or Logic or Digital Performer, but getting a much less capable DAW. If you like Pro Tools, that's fine, but don't believe for one second that you aren't paying a steep premium for it....

The "being locked in" argument always puzzles me. As a consumer you do the research and base your decisions on that hopefully informed conclusion.

Well, let me give you a list of ways that tied hardware can screw you over:

First, when the hardware fails, you get to buy the software again. That software will never be usable by anyone without the hardware, so the cost of the first copy of Pro Tools is a wasted expense. Of course, you get a copy of Cubase LE or AudioDesk with other interfaces, so part of that extra expense is a give, but at least you could ostensibly sell your copy of Cubase LE or AudioDesk and somebody could use it without needing to own some specific piece of hardware....

Second, if you ever decide you want to use a mobile interface or upgrade your interface, you're basically stuck with buying another Digi interface unless you want to start over with a new DAW.

Third, when Digi stops supporting your interface in new versions of Pro Tools after a few years, you no longer have a viable upgrade path for that setup. If an OS upgrade forces you to upgrade to a new version of Pro Tools, you have a choice of buying new hardware or changing DAWs.

That's why buying software that is tied to hardware is a bad idea. This isn't a conspiracy theory. It's just common sense.

Bad information is bad information.

 

[Joseph Hanna]

That's why buying software that is tied to hardware is a bad idea. This isn't a conspiracy theory. It's just common sense.

Yes...yes of course.

I've never looked at it from this angle. The truth really is out there.

Digidesign obviously is after all.... the smoking mans brother.

 

[tojo]

I like logic a lot. for $500 you get 3 extra applications and loads of instruments and effects. Who knows maybe you'll want to make a sound track, or play live in a more efficient manner.

I still haven't learned all its capabilities ... not even close.

 

[wreckd504]

If you do the digi certs you get 40% off hardware and 50% off software from the digi store and plug ins, so that throws another variable into the debate.

A friend bought a mbox micro for retail to learn PT on, now is getting a 003 rack for $799. Yes the course cost money, but its hard to put a value on what you learn.

The rack version is roughly $1100.00. It is approximately equivalent to an 8Pre, which costs $550. That's roughly double. The same goes for the control surface version when compared with equivalent products.

Well, let me give you a list of ways that tied hardware can screw you over:

First, when the hardware fails, you get to buy the software again. That software will never be usable by anyone without the hardware, so the cost of the first copy of Pro Tools is a wasted expense. Of course, you get a copy of Cubase LE or AudioDesk with other interfaces, so part of that extra expense is a give, but at least you could ostensibly sell your copy of Cubase LE or AudioDesk and somebody could use it without needing to own some specific piece of hardware....

Second, if you ever decide you want to use a mobile interface or upgrade your interface, you're basically stuck with buying another Digi interface unless you want to start over with a new DAW.

Third, when Digi stops supporting your interface in new versions of Pro Tools after a few years, you no longer have a viable upgrade path for that setup. If an OS upgrade forces you to upgrade to a new version of Pro Tools, you have a choice of buying new hardware or changing DAWs.

That's why buying software that is tied to hardware is a bad idea. This isn't a conspiracy theory. It's just common sense.

1. Could you elaborate on what do you mean by "when the hardware fails, you get to buy the software again"?

2. Upgrading hasn't been painful and I didn't feel I was missing out on any features from other interfaces. I went from a mbox 1 to a 002 and will be going HD in the next year or two. I've kept my mbox 1 for mobile and will probably use the 002 to cross grade, digi give you [in Australia] $1000 off a HD system when you give back your 002. It really didn't make me feel like I was stuck, each interface did exactly what I needed and from what I found was priced comparatively to the competition at the time. The 32 track count did annoy me for a while, but with the student discount it's $248 to get the production toolkit.

3. I bought my mbox 1 in 2003, its still supported in the latest PT version 7.4.2 - doesn't seem too bad to me.


With that being said I think gecko zzed gave the best answer I've ever heard.

Somehow you need to be able to try out your choices, and see if you can figure which is most likely to match your way of thinking.

 

[dgatwood]

1. Could you elaborate on what do you mean by "when the hardware fails, you get to buy the software again"?

Hardware fails. It's an inevitable fact of life. Maybe it gets dropped or somebody spills a soda on it. Maybe the caps leak electrolyte. Maybe there's a power surge. S**t happens.

When you buy an interface/software package, you're getting the interface and the software. Therefore, if you need to buy new hardware because it fails, you end up paying for the software all over again.

That's all I meant.

2. Upgrading hasn't been painful and I didn't feel I was missing out on any features from other interfaces. I went from a mbox 1 to a 002 and will be going HD in the next year or two.

My point was that when all is said and done, you will have paid for three copies of Pro Tools.

I've kept my mbox 1 for mobile and will probably use the 002 to cross grade, digi give you [in Australia] $1000 off a HD system when you give back your 002.

Okay, that certainly takes some of the sting out of it. On the other hand, since they can't realistically resell those 002 systems, that tells me that they have an extra $1000 of padding on top of the profit margins of a typical company selling the same product....

3. I bought my mbox 1 in 2003, its still supported in the latest PT version 7.4.2 - doesn't seem too bad to me.

I should hope so. That's only five years.... M-Audio still supports the 1010LT and that came out in... 1998, I think.

The Digi 001, by contrast, came out in 1999 and support was dropped three years ago when PT7 came out.

If I were forced to upgrade my interface or not be able to upgrade my DAW after only six years, I'd be pretty annoyed. For a big studio, that's a tiny line item as part of the cost of doing business. For a home studio, that's a sizable chunk of change. And to get a shorter duration of support while paying roughly twice as much... just doesn't make sense for a home studio.

 

[bennychico11]

Hardware fails. It's an inevitable fact of life. Maybe it gets dropped or somebody spills a soda on it. Maybe the caps leak electrolyte. Maybe there's a power surge. S**t happens.

When you buy an interface/software package, you're getting the interface and the software. Therefore, if you need to buy new hardware because it fails, you end up paying for the software all over again.

That's all I meant.

Many of us consider you're paying the money for the hardware unit. Since really, $1000 is pretty much the median price you'll pay for 18 channels of I/O. So really, you're getting the software for free

I should hope so. That's only five years.... M-Audio still supports the 1010LT and that came out in... 1998, I think.

The Digi 001, by contrast, came out in 1999 and support was dropped three years ago when PT7 came out.

actually the 001 was dropped well before 7.0
Still...the M-Audio 1010LT doesn't have software. There's no need to keep it supported with specific software, since it just acts as a hardware unit. I guess maybe the drivers are still usable?
Of course if you're referring to it's still supported with Pro Tools M-Powered...Avid only recently acquired M-Audio so really it's only been a couple years that it's been "supported"

That being said, the 001 is still supported via Digi tech support. So is their older TDM interfaces/software. Really, every software maker makes hardware obsolete eventually. Sadly, I doubt I'll be able to run my Windows XP on the first laptop I bought 15 years ago.
But then, who said you HAVE to upgrade your software in order to record/mix audio? I'm still working on an older TDM mix unit just fine. That's 10 years of working without any "hardware failure"

It's funny, Pro Tools debates almost become as heated as political debates around here. Those who don't even use the software/hardware feel it's their duty to tell people how terrible it is.

btw, to clear up a few things...PTLE does have a delay compensation built into the buffer. Not to mention I know people who prefer to have manual the control over correcting the plugin delay. They don't see the delay compensation in many programs being all that accurate enough.
Also, regarding surround sound, this is possible in LE ( http://www.neyrinck.com/Pages/mix51.html )

 

[dgatwood]

actually the 001 was dropped well before 7.0
Still...the M-Audio 1010LT doesn't have software. There's no need to keep it supported with specific software, since it just acts as a hardware unit. I guess maybe the drivers are still usable?

First, the drivers are still being regularly updated to support new OSes (the 001 officially won't run past XP, though a few people reportedly have gotten it to work with 32-bit Vista), and whatever audio app you get for it still supports it simply because it doesn't have an arbitrary list of supported interfaces....

Perhaps more remarkably, the 1010LT is also supported by Pro Tools M-Powered if you spend the money to buy that.... Of course, that's because M-Audio never seems to discontinue products (it just adds new ones), but....

btw, to clear up a few things...PTLE does have a delay compensation built into the buffer. Not to mention I know people who prefer to have manual the control over correcting the plugin delay. They don't see the delay compensation in many programs being all that accurate enough.

Only built-in on HD. Yes, you can do manual compensation, but that's a pain in the neck. As for delay compensation not being accurate enough, it should be perfectly sample accurate. If it isn't, the plugin is either buggy or hasn't been updated to support plugin compensation. Both of these conditions are relatively rare, and either way, you should scream at the plugin author until it gets fixed.... It's not like the math is hard... particularly when compared with the sort of math you have to do to write a plugin that requires plugin delay compensation....

Also, regarding surround sound, this is possible in LE ( http://www.neyrinck.com/Pages/mix51.html )

Being able to hack surround sound capability in by adding additional software is not the same thing as being able to do surround sound.... That's like saying LE can do OMF export without mentioning that you have to add DigiTranslator....

 

[wreckd504]

Hardware fails. It's an inevitable fact of life. Maybe it gets dropped or somebody spills a soda on it. Maybe the caps leak electrolyte. Maybe there's a power surge. S**t happens.

When you buy an interface/software package, you're getting the interface and the software. Therefore, if you need to buy new hardware because it fails, you end up paying for the software all over again.


My point was that when all is said and done, you will have paid for three copies of Pro Tools.

yea sorry I don't see it that way. I see it as i'm upgrading and buying the hardware and the software is coming with it. Just like if I buy an interface that comes with cubase LE i can't ask for it without the software and get it for cheaper. AFAIK anyway

Okay, that certainly takes some of the sting out of it. On the other hand, since they can't realistically resell those 002 systems, that tells me that they have an extra $1000 of padding on top of the profit margins of a typical company selling the same product....

Who knows what they do with 002's they buyback. As for the "$1000 padding", how much of a mark up do you think you're paying on all the other gear you buy? There's a lot of middle men between us and the manufacturer, digidesign isn't special in that way. I'd love to know their margins and sale's secrets, but you're just speculating as to why they buyback 002's...and I don't even know if thats something that happens in every region.

 

[corban]

so david to answer your question: if you're not using midi, go with reaper.

 

[antichef]

I'm using Logic Express 8 for my home studio, and think it's kick-ass - no limitations for me. It sells for $200 and then you can upgrade to pro for $300 ( = the $500 Pro price), but I see no need to do the upgrade.

I can't (and so I won't) comment on pro-tools. I have been working in the software industry for a couple of decades, and can't bring myself to make a commitment to a software/hardware coupling scheme (except for macs , sort of), but I suppose that would be secondary to making music, if pro-tools were the only way to go. Fortunately for me, it isn't

edit: and reaper looks pretty good, too, but I haven't used it much.