Professional Vocals Don't Have Mono Image!

[Lionel_Hutz]

Hello,
I am recording a few rock tunes right now and have a question about recording vocals. I've read over and over that you should record the vocals with one (mono)mic to ensure they stay centered. Now the confusing thing is, when I pull up a professionally done piece of work, for example, the song "Fuel" by Metallica, (I chose this song because it starts off with a single dry vocal by itself.) When I pull the phase scope up in Wavelabs 4.0 and play the dry single vocal by itself, I notice that the phase indicates a stereo spread, not too large, but it is definetely not a mono image. So my question is, "Are they(Metallica) recording with two mono mics and summing them together left and right later on?" Oh yes, Green Day's song "Blood Sex and Booze" and The Offspring's "Bad Habit" have spots with just dry single vocals and it's the same image so it's not just Metallica...

Thanks in advance,


William

 

[bennychico11]

my guess.....reverb

 

[MadAudio]

Yeah, most reverb units have stereo returns, and you can tweak the imaging.

 

[Lionel_Hutz]

You know what, it could be that simple. Although I still think it could be a two mic process, one close, then the other three times the distance back to avoid phase cancellation. I vaguely remember watching the classic albums with Bob Rock and Metallica and seeing two mics. I know Fuel is not on Black but it still proves that this is done..., if I remember correctly.

 

[bennychico11]

if that were true, i would think you'd either a) still have a mono image because both mics would be panned dead center or b) if they were panned L and R you'd hear a difference in both speakers because of the two different mics combined with the two different distances.

 

[MadAudio]

It's what they did in the mix that counts anyway.

 

[Lionel_Hutz]

I checked the video, they did use two mics for vocals on the black album... Who knows though, maybe they are panned very slightly..., I'll just go with the reverb idea, it sounds more traditional. Thanks for the help guys.

 

[Lionel_Hutz]

It's funny, when I look at the phase it's very clean and ciruclar, either it's a very expensive reverb unit or it's simply offsetting on side of the vocal track.

 

[MadAudio]

I checked the video, they did use two mics for vocals on the black album... Who knows though, maybe they are panned very slightly...

That could be. But other effects besides reverb may be at play here as well. Maybe a light touch of chorus or a slap back or something.

And I'm sure you know that most vocals are recorded dry (not counting compression or eq here, just talkin' reverb) and the effects are added in the mix.

 

[Lionel_Hutz]

yes, there are many ways of giving this effect, for example, I was just checking the Green Day song with a singled out vocal. It appears that the left and right channels are 90 degrees out of phase. And yes, I'm aware of the dry vocal process, that's what I prefer, I like having the control.

 

[MadAudio]

Yes! Control! Hahaha. I love the power!


Hey, weren't you my lawyer once? I think you owe me a pizza.

 

[freak1c]

" Although I still think it could be a two mic process, one close, then the other three times the distance back to avoid phase cancellation. "


you're thinking of the 3 to 1 rule with spaced pairs wich is 2 mics should be 3 times as far apart from each other as they are from the sound source.
1 mic close and another 3 feet behind would be a comb filter, a 3 khz. comb filter.

 

[Lionel_Hutz]

Yes, I've seen that mic placement done by professionals... I don't know the panning and/or other applications involved in blending the two mic's together so I guess I'll stick with offsetting the one side a millionth of a second or so, then using reverb to taste. I've heard of comb filters, but need info to understand what they mean. I think it's taking the one side of a stereo file and removing the frequencies, and doing the opposite to the frequency spectrum on the other side.... As I said, I'm not too sure yet.

 

[NYMorningstar]

" Although I still think it could be a two mic process, one close, then the other three times the distance back to avoid phase cancellation. "


you're thinking of the 3 to 1 rule with spaced pairs wich is 2 mics should be 3 times as far apart from each other as they are from the sound source.
1 mic close and another 3 feet behind would be a comb filter, a 3 khz. comb filter.

The 3 to 1 rule is for miking 2 sources I believe.

 

[MadAudio]

The 3 to 1 rule is for miking 2 sources I believe.

No, the same source with 2 (or more) mics. And I'm pretty sure this only applies to cardioids.

 

[Farview]

Yes, I've seen that mic placement done by professionals... I don't know the panning and/or other applications involved in blending the two mic's together so I guess I'll stick with offsetting the one side a millionth of a second or so, then using reverb to taste. I've heard of comb filters, but need info to understand what they mean. I think it's taking the one side of a stereo file and removing the frequencies, and doing the opposite to the frequency spectrum on the other side.... As I said, I'm not too sure yet.

Comb filtering is what happens when you have phase problems. If you take a track and clone it, move one 10ms ahead and pan them both to the center, you will hear the effect of comb filtering. It is also called phase cancelation.

 

[freak1c]

The live sound people know all about comb filters.

 

[boingoman]

No, the same source with 2 (or more) mics. And I'm pretty sure this only applies to cardioids.

I think you are off on this one.

"The distance between mics should be at least three times the mic-to-source distance (Again, see Figure 2). For example, if two mics are each 4 inches from their sound sources, the mics should be at least 12 inches apart to prevent phase cancellations."

It's all about mic-to source distance.

Given the definition, it is physically impossible to apply the 3:1 rule to two mics on the same source, unless they are both the same distance from the source. Think about it for a second. If you have one mic one foot away from a guitar, and another four feet away from a guitar, they need to be twelve feet apart to follow the rule.

http://www.prosoundweb.com/install/spotlight/bartlett/phase/phase.shtml

The 3:1 rule tries to keep the level of the indirect source in the mic around 10db less than the direct source.


Two mics on one source need to be the same distance, or some comb filtering will result if they are played back at the same volume. It's just physics. Playing with the distances or reversing polarity just minimizes the effect, like with a room mic on a drum kit.

Some people advocate the 3:1 rule when stereo micing, but it doesn't seem to make sense there either.

If you stereo mic a choir from 10ft away, then your mics would have to be 30ft apart.

 

[Lionel_Hutz]

Well I've read an article by Robert Dennis about micing a guitar amp with two mics. One close and one distant, (about 6 - 12 inches back.) If it is safe for guitar amps, I don't see why it's not safe for capturing vocals. The only difference with the guitar method though is you end up panning the mics to different spots in the stereo field later. With the vocals, I don't know the application for panning as I said earlier.

 

[giraffe]

just my opinion but with very few exceptions stereo (or doubled) panned LEAD vox just sound like poo
(panned harm can sound good)

cake's cool blue reason starts out with a stereo vox that sounds neat, and it ends before it gets old