Sjoko, Shailat, Skippy, Track Rat... – guitar depth

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Pro Question: Sjoko, Shailat, Skippy, Track Rat, any others... - re: guitar depth​

...Just listened to Steely Dan's Two Against nature yet again.... the recording of the guitars, especially on the song intros is particluarly smooth and well-recorded.... they sound dry, yet still have definition and depth to them.... the other thing is it's beyond simply the playing ability/tone of the guitarists themselves, since that same depth is consistent from track to track, even though different guitarists/guitars/amps are obviously being used.

I'd give at least, say $1.00 ( ;) ), for anyone's insight on the signal chain/technique Roger would use to get this sound.... I must admit, I've tried and although I can get that "cleanness", there is that depth that still eludes me.

Bruce
 
PS... and please don't tell me I'm simply outgrowing my rig and need to upgrade to an SSL!!!! ;)

:D :D
 
Anything I can tell you would be a guess only.
Send him a email he might reply.

They tend to compress quite a lot (or their kick ass players play extremly defined) and use what sounds to me like gates to keep the sound very clean, with minimal effect on guitars (on the general mix all together you hear limited use of effects).
Combine this with great pre's (That add depth).
Since the mix has minimal effects and is so sharp and clear, any part played with a bit of delay to push it back a drop, or a bit reverb with some pre-delay will sound "with a lot of depth".

But I'm only guessing.........These things used to be trade tricks a few years ago and I remember they wouldnt spill a drop of info for all those that were amazed at the recording quality. Today with internet more is being told.

If you get an answer from him, let me know.
 
Thanks Shailat, that's kinda what I was guessing at too, but I was hoping to "know"!

I emailed roger nichols but I highly doubt I'll get a response......... ;)

I was hoping someone here would have inside info!

Bruce
 
Bruce,

You mean to tell me that they didn't just plug their POD into their trusty VS-880?

Sorry... l couldn't resist :) That seems to be the type of comment I get from some of my friends when I ask about "not quite having the sound I want" out of my trusty tube amps and guitars. :D

I'll have to go see if I have a recording of the song you are asking about now... you've got my curiousity up.

Ok... I'll shut up now

Velvet Elvis
 
Check out Two Against Nature (title track) and Janie Runaway....

Bruce
 
I liek SD's production too. I'm only 20 so it's refrshing to hear some well made "older" *caugh* stuff for a bit of a change. I saw a program of exactly how they made their albums on the BBC a year or two back. Perhaps you could hunt that down?

From memory they just got a lot of studio musicians to come in and do their thing. Each song would have several studio guiatrist do an improvised bit but they would just takle the best bit. I think the fact that they are using the vintage guitars and amp helps.
I would thinkt he fact that they often used "F hole" guitars on Vox AC 30 amps etc would contribute a lot to that birght, jazzy tone that they get a lot on their records.
 
Alchemist3k said:
I liek SD's production too. I'm only 20 so it's refrshing to hear some well made "older" *caugh* stuff for a bit of a change.
Click to expand...

OLD ?!?!!? who are you calling old ?!?!?. ;)

I tell you guys..what is the world comming to? All day I hear shit on the radio and crap like "blink 129489645765187655".

Is rock dying? Is good music dead now considered old?
There was a show were a buncj of youngsters were ask about
George Harrison after his death and there were to many who said.... Harrison who?!?.
Show me an album like Steely Dans - Gaucho that was done in the past 25 years.....

Till when are we going to put up with this Dance hiphop Jungle shit... I say we all rebel now ! Bring back some good Rock !.

Just venting...just venting....sigh... :o
 
Shailat, I got your back bro.:D
Even the older SD kicks ass. The Royal Scam, Katy Lied
 
Shailat...

Calm down ;-) hehehehe

I think what I have discovered is that there always seems to be two scenes of music... on for the musicians and one for the general public.

The "musician" bands are the ones who have generally challenging songs and great musicianship... IE Steely Dan, King's X, etc etc (you could find one in about every style).

Then there are the "general public" bands that just want to make "feel good" music. IE Blink 182 etc.

I think there is room for both... but that's just me. I went from playing in a band that did all the technical stuff to playing in one that writes more for the audience... its interesting... but to be honest, its a whole lot more fun to have the audience participate than just stand around and watch.

Any of that make sense?

I dunno... unfortunately musicians DO get old at some point ;-) I saw Johnny Cash on TV the other day while flipping through channels.. some show he did a year or two ago... my goodness... not looking YOUNG that's for sure :) hehehe

Velvet Elvis
 
I hear a certain quality on most pro tracks that eludes me. I describe it as a sheen that creates a 3-D type of depth that surrounds the track and makes it sound like you can almost reach out and grab it. This is especially true of guitar tracks. Does this sounds like what you are talking about? I don't think it is reverb or any other spatial enhancement including natural ambiance and I don't think it is E.Q., etc. If there is a signal chain solution I would love to know what it is. P.S. - I never heard this until I built my current control room.
 
After Harrison's death my local classic rock FM station did a Beatles A-Z this past weekend.The production values even on the early pop stuff were awesome given the technology of the day.

Aja is my preference for "perfect production ". I like to go to school on Mssrs Nichols,Fagen and Co.How the hell did a thinly disguised jazz band top the rock charts anyway (can you say C...H...I...C...A...G...O...)?

Tom
 
Tom,

Yeah... production on a lot of old music is actually quite good for the age and the equipment. That was back when good ears and creative ideas made the album instead of "the latest greatest plug in for correcting crap" :)

Talent behind the mics and behind the board is hard to replace.

That's why my recordings suck I guess :p I'm guessing buying that Studer 24 track and that Neve console will do little to make me suck less :)

Actually, that is one of the reasons I still use a Mackie and some ADATs... if the recording is done well and the song is a good tune... it will sound good regardless to some extent. The better equipment can obviously help, but it won't make crap sparkle like a gem (to do that, you would need ProTools... bwahahahaha).

hehehe

Bruce... sorry to move your thread so far off topic... I tried to download the MP3 sample from SD's website of those two songs, but it didn't have the part you are referring to on it.

Velvet Elvis
 
Bruce,
Did you try the RO bbs? or rec.audio.pro usenet? I don't tend to hang at either of those places, keeping up with this place is enough for me. :eek:

Queue

I've loved SD from the beginning... was glad to see Fagan and Becker recording together again. Fagan's solo stuff was ok, but it was just kinda missing something....

Guitars (specifically, Becker's Guitars!!)
 
Blue Bear Sound said:
PS... and please don't tell me I'm simply outgrowing my rig and need to upgrade to an SSL!!!! ;)

:D :D
Click to expand...


OK I wont, how about an Studer 827 and a API console?

Heh Heh,
Dennis
 
Roybot said:
If there is a signal chain solution I would love to know what it is. P.S. - I never heard this until I built my current control room.
Click to expand...

It is mainly down to layering the guitar tracks. All modern groups, and not so modern groups, do this not matter what the style. You may think you hear one guitar but in actual fact it is almost certainly two or three. e.g. Alice in Chains only had one guitarist, Jerry Cantrell, and one many of their songs there appear to be only one guitar but oin acutal fact you have different makes of guitar playing the same part through the same amp settings. for example he used a Les Paul left, different humbucked guitar right and a PRS down the middle. Skillfully mixed it soudn liuke one huge guitar. More obvious is Dimebag Darell form Pantera - one of the reaons he has the most huge guitar sound ever is the part are recorded and layered about four times.

The above can also be done with drums. 48 mics were sued to record Lars Ulrich's drums on the "Black Album".

Good mastering obviously gives the pro touch also.
 
It is DEFINTIELY one guitar in the SD stuff I was referring to - unquestionably....

And V.Elvis... Sorry - I mixed up the song name... it's Gaslighting Abbie and Janie Runaway.

Bruce
 
Blue Bear Sound said:
...Just listened to Steely Dan's Two Against nature yet again.... the recording of the guitars, especially on the song intros is particluarly smooth and well-recorded.... they sound dry, yet still have definition and depth to them.... the other thing is it's beyond simply the playing ability/tone of the guitarists themselves, since that same depth is consistent from track to track, even though different guitarists/guitars/amps are obviously being used.

I'd give at least, say $1.00 ( ;) ), for anyone's insight on the signal chain/technique Roger would use to get this sound.... I must admit, I've tried and although I can get that "cleanness", there is that depth that still eludes me.

Bruce
Click to expand...

I'm just talking a wild guess and talking out my ass here. Did they record to analog? I've never really been happy with guitar recorded to a digital format. When recording stuff like guitars, the analog domain offers so much more depth (IMO), than does digital....you can still do it with digital, but it's harder.

Of course you need a good amp, guitar, player, etc...
 
Yeah analogue tape saturation also makes guitar sound less harsh and more natural. It has the same effect that the air does on sound between the sound source (guitar amp) and you ears in a live setting.
 
Maybe, but I don't think so... according to all I've read from Roger Nichols over the last few years, he's all digital.... almost excessively so!

In looking at other SD recordings, all the guitars have that same "depth", whether they're doubled or single tracks... it's almost a signature recorded sound, leaving me to beleive that Roger has a secret weapon up his sleeve, whether it's during mixing or tracking.... boy would I kill for THAT sound..............

I guess that will become my next engineering goal - get more depth to guitar tracks.......

Bruce
 
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