I think so, definitely. Speaker and cab behavior has a big effect on tone.
I think so, definitely. Speaker and cab behavior has a big effect on tone.
R
RAMI
Guest
Cool, thanx. I'm looking forward to playing around with my amp now that everything's a bit clearer. Still going to get a tube amp eventually, but I know I can get a way better sound than I've been getting even with the Peavey for now.
Blackstars look like they're a little less expensive than the Marshalls and the 4-5watt amp that Armistice told me about. I'll have to see if I can try out a few different amps at a music store.
Tube amps add another wrinkle into the volume vs tone phenomenon. Actually, several more wrinkles. Tubes. How and when a tube decides to break up, distort, clip, melt, whatever you wanna call it has a big effect on tone. I'm a big believer in getting crunch from volume as opposed to a lot of pre amp gain. Volume/power tube crunch generally sounds more pleasing to me than pre amp gain with low volume. Bigger volume gets the power tubes more involved and as a side bonus it gets the speakers shaking some air and the cab resonating. Volume = good!
heatmiser
mr. green christmas
Based on my somewhat limited experience, I agree with Greg.
The distortion achieved through tube break up at higher volumes tends to sound better to me than distortion achieved through tube break up by manipulating gain at lower volumes.
Of course, the problem for a lot of us is whether we can play at the volumes needed to get that break up to occur. In my case, my tube amp has to be super loud to break up much at all. It's been an issue forever.
I guess that's where the low-wattage mini tube amps come into play? Never tried one, but they get a lot good press here. I do agree too that you should eventually get a tube amp rami. I don't know how free you are to play at whatever volume you wish though.
The distortion achieved through tube break up at higher volumes tends to sound better to me than distortion achieved through tube break up by manipulating gain at lower volumes.
Of course, the problem for a lot of us is whether we can play at the volumes needed to get that break up to occur. In my case, my tube amp has to be super loud to break up much at all. It's been an issue forever.
I guess that's where the low-wattage mini tube amps come into play? Never tried one, but they get a lot good press here. I do agree too that you should eventually get a tube amp rami. I don't know how free you are to play at whatever volume you wish though.
In the vast majority of cases you never want to push a solid state power amp into distortion, they hardly ever sound good and often "latchup" and make clicky or farty noises.
That is not to say a decent overdrive tone cannot be wrought from solid state but it all comes from the pre amp and makers use various distortion mechanisms such as clipper and non-linear feedback using diodes, FETs and transistors.
The "pushed speaker" idea is a bit of a myth as well. The horses mouth, Celestion, have said that you do not have to drive their speakers to within an inch of their life to achieve a good tone, if the drive signal is right, milliwatts sounds great!
Indeed, in a valve amplifier especially, it is important that the speaker(s) is rated to at least 50% over amp rating for a long life.
Pedals: Well there is at least one range (cough!) that uses a double triode in a proper 300volt circuit.
Dave.
That is not to say a decent overdrive tone cannot be wrought from solid state but it all comes from the pre amp and makers use various distortion mechanisms such as clipper and non-linear feedback using diodes, FETs and transistors.
The "pushed speaker" idea is a bit of a myth as well. The horses mouth, Celestion, have said that you do not have to drive their speakers to within an inch of their life to achieve a good tone, if the drive signal is right, milliwatts sounds great!
Indeed, in a valve amplifier especially, it is important that the speaker(s) is rated to at least 50% over amp rating for a long life.
Pedals: Well there is at least one range (cough!) that uses a double triode in a proper 300volt circuit.
Dave.
R
RAMI
Guest
Thanx for all the help, guys. Lots of good info in these posts and all the posts in this thread.
Yeah, I can play pretty loud most of the time, but I can't play REALLY loud all the time. If I go for a tube amp, it will probably be a low wattage one. I'd love to crank a Marshall and shake the walls, but having an amp like that would probably limit how much recording I get done because I'd have to choose my times.
Well said. - Speaker breakup is an absolute crapshoot - if there is a perfect "marriage" between the tube breakup and the tones which will be generated when the speaker breaks up as well, then it could possibly result in a better tone. That being said, the sought after sound of tube breakup can also be comprimised by an uncontrolled speaker breaking up as well, and the longer you are into speaker distortion, the more the tone will change with building voice coil heat - this is why in most recording cases now smaller wattage tube amps are used and the use of power brakes is becoming more common in larger amps.
Armistice
Son of Yoda
But haven't you got a thumping great drum kit that makes super loud noises?
Given my time again I'd probably buy the small Marshall over the small Vox I've got.. the Vox is nice but quite tonally limited... and as for drive, it works waaaay better with the humbuckers on my LP and other guitars than the single coils on my "Strat"...
The Vox is, however, undeniably cuter...
Given my time again I'd probably buy the small Marshall over the small Vox I've got.. the Vox is nice but quite tonally limited... and as for drive, it works waaaay better with the humbuckers on my LP and other guitars than the single coils on my "Strat"...
The Vox is, however, undeniably cuter...
ocnor
Lord Of The Thighs
Not familiar with that model RAMI but I had a Peavey Renown many moons ago that had that set up, and I used the saturation over the preamp...
But back then I had not the vaguest idea about anything and I was probably wrong - so don't listen to me! I'm just sort of interested... so we'll see what the other bods say.
I also had a Peavey Renoun back in the 80s. I found that running the pre around 6-7 and the saturation at about 2-3 gave me the best tone.
R
RAMI
Guest
Hehe...Good point. But I'd rather have 1,000 people listening to me drum than 1 person listening to me play guitar.But haven't you got a thumping great drum kit that makes super loud noises?
R
RAMI
Guest
Wow! That amp is obviously a lot different than the Studio Pro 50. If I had mine set like that, I'd get nothing but a weak, crackling clean sound.
Wait, that's pretty much the sound I'm getting anyway. Maybe I should try your settings.
I had a Peavey Backstage 30 waaaaaaaaay back in the day and IIRC, the Saturation is supposed to emulate an overdriven power tube, as opposed to the Pre emulating overdriven preamp tubes. Whatever flavor you like better is your call. I remember preferring the Saturation more, but still used both liberally.
I don't have much experience with guitar but used to really push my Kustom transistor bass amp way back in the late 70s. It would heat up and fuzz out like a big Muff but I got a lot of speaker farts too. I couldn't fill our venues and it finally started breaking up at lower volumes so I traded up to more watts and double cabinets. Probably lucky I can hear anything today but man, we rocked!
I have a Line 6 Duoverb for guitar. It simulates every amp ever made and will run them single, parallel or series. Very realistic tube or transistor sounds.
I have a Line 6 Duoverb for guitar. It simulates every amp ever made and will run them single, parallel or series. Very realistic tube or transistor sounds.
To be pedandically accurate we should not refer to valve stage "saturation".
This is a condition where the valve is delivering its absolute maximum cathode current and is very damaging to to it. Saturation is never found in common valve stages.*
Two overdrive conditions can exist in a valve stage. Cut off, where the grid is driven sufficiently negative of the cathode to prevent or "cut off" anode current and "grid current limiting". In this instance the grid is driven positive and starts to draw actual current, the limiting action is because the previous stage cannot (usually) supply more than a few microamps of signal current.
Transistors can be driven into cutoff and into true saturation where the collector-emitter voltage drops to less than a volt but there is no transistor equivalent for grid current operation.
*Melin Blencowe: Designing Tube Preamps for Guitar and Bass. If you are even remotely interested in guitar amps get that book! Despite the title, the rest of the book reverts to "proper" terminology such as "valves" and "anodes"!
Dave.
This is a condition where the valve is delivering its absolute maximum cathode current and is very damaging to to it. Saturation is never found in common valve stages.*
Two overdrive conditions can exist in a valve stage. Cut off, where the grid is driven sufficiently negative of the cathode to prevent or "cut off" anode current and "grid current limiting". In this instance the grid is driven positive and starts to draw actual current, the limiting action is because the previous stage cannot (usually) supply more than a few microamps of signal current.
Transistors can be driven into cutoff and into true saturation where the collector-emitter voltage drops to less than a volt but there is no transistor equivalent for grid current operation.
*Melin Blencowe: Designing Tube Preamps for Guitar and Bass. If you are even remotely interested in guitar amps get that book! Despite the title, the rest of the book reverts to "proper" terminology such as "valves" and "anodes"!
Dave.