Pre amp gain vs tube screamer, recording guitar

[ecc83]

The HB in the middle of my main gigging guitar does pretty well, and if put it in series with the bridge pickup, things can start to meltdown. Those are kind of the extreme, though.

As we mentioned earlier in the thread, the active filter which lives in among that non-linear diodes feedback opamp circuit is pretty important for getting the harmonics that these kids want from their cranked Van Halen amplifiers. It hits the amp harder overall, but it shapes the tone in a way and/or a place that the amp's own tone controls can't. I guess.


I've been doing this for about a year now both live and in the studio. I have a DIY booster which I ended up modding until it became something very much like a modded TS. Plug that straight into even mic input on your interface and it's unity gain in with all kinds of headroom. That guitar above will clip any of the Instrument inputs I own. The booster pedal destroys them! There's plenty of headroom on the line ins. No impedance mismatch after the pedal. Works.

Except the amp sims all seem to "expect" about. 9-12db of gain between the pickup and the amp.

Yes, a really hot humbucker and a heavy hand would drive the first grid pretty hard! Thing is, that first stage probably has a gain of ~40X and by the time the bucker is kicking out a volt or so the second stage is getting 40-80 volts and that MIGHT sound ok but could also cause blocking or farting out.

Guitar amps are of course infinite in their variety, the devil really is in the circuit details, just got to go by the Mk1 lug!

Such fun!

Dave.

 

[wmalan]

Yes...for RECORDING....you get better tone with the amp louder, because you drive the power tubes, and that's where a lot of the ballsy tone is at. If you want more fizzy tone, then just juice your front end.

Here's the thing....forget your mics and your mic pres and your interface....

GET THE TONE AT THE AMP....and that includes cranking it up as loud as it needs to be. Sure, sometimes you get the tone you want with a lower volume, but IMO, and from what I've experienced....the best tones end up with the amp pretty loud or at least up toward its full volume capability. I mean, if it's a 5W amp, it's not going to be real loud, like if it's a 50w amp.
Don't hesitate to crank the amp up just because you are recording.

Now....once you get your tone regardless of amp volume....THEN stick a mic in front of it, and adjust the mic pre-amp where you have a decent signal, and so on.

If you want to use a stomp box in front....fine, use whatever you have to...but you're wrong in thinking that you need to avoid a loud amp for recording.
You may have to for other reasons (neighbors, wife, kids)....but not for recording.

You can't touch a cranked amp with any kind of stomp or sim or whatever......

This thread (though starting out a bit rough...) brings to light a common issue for us home recording folks: Recording big sound in a quiet house.

I've been fighting with amp sims (Guitar Rig sucks for me), foot pedals (they are not a substitute for low volume amps), and micing. So for my needs I'm looking at ultra low wattage tube amps. I have a friend who's designed 1/2 - 2 watt amps (as kits). There are several other great brands on the market. The 1/2 watt I tried sounded warm, driven, and huge! The best part is when you drive it, it sounds like a big amp. Put a mic in front of it and you have monster sound without pissing off the family and or neighbors.

What do ya'll think of these various brands?: http://www.chasingtone.com/lowwattamps/

 

[rayc]

You'd have to be delirious to think that Google and Youtube are your friends.
They, and Wikipaedia, are the prime sources of misinformation - particularly but not exclusively - when it comes to dialogue about quality audio (Utub), dealing in fact before paid subscription (Goggle) and deliberate misinformation (Wakki).
Opinion is a right in many countries, taste/preference are almost as hallowed.
Having a preference for something is as personal as an opinion but is not subject to the rigorous requirement that opinion carries with it.
Opinion has to be backed by evidence. We are presented a right to an opinion but not a right to be wrong in that opinion - that is a false presumption. If we are wrong we have to concede that it is a matter of preference or taste.
It's rather sad that the current understanding of "opinion", (which in the modern instance often translates to a thought bubble or unsubstantiated idea), seems, of late, to trump expertise/experience &/or pure knowledge.
Evidence is also a matter of concern - you need to know & trust your source.
It's not going to be the fellow oft mentioned on the US$1 bill, nor is it Utub, Goggle or Wakki WITHOUT substantial cross referencing or testing.
I've seen the latter used to support an opinion by a protagonist but not by the O.P.

 

[ecc83]

There are those that will never be happy with low powered amps (and can we define "low power" at 5W or less?) and such people are right in several respects, not least in the fact that being immersed in a 110dB+ SPL pumps up your adrenalin, we are as a species programed to fear very loud noises, a lion roar, a lightening strike. I understand that having elevated adrenalin levels is actually quite good for you? Pity doing it with sound buggers your hearing!

One reason that LPAs are disliked (tho the peeps might not know this) is that they are pretty much all "Single Ended". That is they have a single output valve working in Class "A" and inevitably cathode biased. The designers of the 5W amp I am familiar with eschewed SE operation and instead went with a push-pull triode and fixed bias. The theory was that this is how "big" amps work and so they might be in with a chance of duplicating the "feel" and sound of such. Many say they have succeeded.

Problem! Five watts is NOT quiet! In fact it will deliver an SPL of 107dB at 1mtr from a V30 and since the amp in discussion is PP, fixed bias, it will go on to deliver nearly 10watts, tho with increasing distortion and that is an SPL of 110dB. By definition, even One watt will put out 100dB from a V30. So, IF you want to simulate the sound of a smokin' stack and NOT wake the chavvy in the next room you have to get down to milliwatts. To get down to a passing acceptable 80dBSPL you need just TEN milliwatts (0.01W) and 80dB is still a "Loud Telly"! You would not by choice listen to Corrie at 80dB (The Big Bang Theory as an example for our colonial friends!) and others throughout the house would be throwing things at you. ....So, what's to do?

Well, by careful design, filters, staged overdrive etc, you can get an acceptable (to many people ) OD sound from the pre amp section and because this can be controlled down to zero level, a decent OD sound produced at reasonable volume. NOT! Everyone's cup of tea I grant you but I have already admitted that 120dB stacks cannot really be downsized anyway.

There is another way and that is the power attenuator or "power soak" but it will be plain from the above that this means throwing away 99.9% of a 100W amp's power (in practice it would be more than that) to get an acceptable listening level. In any case the Soak would have to handle up to 200W at full chat and would get bloody hot! Far better to start with just 5W and chop that down. But power soaks are notoriously amp "sensitive" . Not all types suit all amps but if you spend enough $$$s something like the Motherload is pretty good it seems?

At the end of the day all we can do is get the best sound WE are happy with and in a way that is practical and moreover does not cause anyone any long term damage.

Dave.

 

[Greg_L]

My problem with low watt amps are usually a lack of headroom and they're usually paired with small cabs. I try them out all the time - they can be loud, they can sound pretty good at times, but they still always sound small to me because they seem to lack headroom and are moving a single speaker in a tiny box. Little low watt heads do sound better to me through big cabs. I'm not a master player that creatively uses all of the nuances of tube breakup, but even in my own ham-fisted way of playing punk rock powerchords, I can hear and feel the difference between a flat-lined low watt amp and a big watt amp that has room to breathe. There is a difference.

The bigger problem as I see it that the general standard of electric guitar sound has been set with big powered amps. Had bands/players throughout history with pioneering rock and roll and/or metal guitar sounds like The Who, and Hendrix, and Led Zeppelin, and Clapton, and SRV, and the Ramones, and Van Halen, and Sabbath, and Guns N Roses, and Nirvana, and Slayer, and Pantera, done their live shows and recordings with little one watt combos sitting on chairs, that would be the default sound that everything developed from. But it didn't happen that way. All of these home-recording friendly sims, modelers, and low watt bedroom amps are trying to do one thing - sound like the big boys at reduced volume, cost, or size. There's always a compromise. Those compromises in cost, volume or size are also a compromise in sound. Maybe it doesn't matter to most people. That's cool. It matters to me. I hear the difference - both standing in front of a deafening monster and in my tracks after that noise has slammed a microphone. I know not everyone wants or needs a wall shaking 100w halfstack or the ear destroying loud cleans of a Fender Twin. That's cool, but those are the sounds that all of these compromised options are trying to duplicate.

Having said all that dumb shit, I will say that I don't begrudge anyone for recording however they want or need to record. I've heard great recordings done with sims and low watt amps. I'm not saying they're useless. I only take exception when fundamentally stupid ideas are presented as being reasonable or necessary - like running a real tube screamer into a sim program to boost the input. I just can't understand why people willingly choose to complicate simple processes in home recording, and I'll speak out against that when I see it.

 

[ecc83]

I agree about the small boxes and less than stellar speakers Greg! I was going to mention this but thought I had rambled on enough!

The five watter I alluded to originally came out* with a Celestion G10-40 not a bad 10incher? But only about 95dB/W/mtr so it was never going to knock out any windows!

On the point about headroom? The fixed bias and 10wattish capability helps greatly in this regard IMHO.

*Is now a 12" of unknown (to me) pedigree, very likely to be a Celly mind you.

Dave.

 

[Greg_L]

So what is this magical 5/10w mystery amp with headroom?

 

[ecc83]

So what is this magical 5/10w mystery amp with headroom?

Ooo! I could not possibly spam that! Look at my posts top right.

Dave.

 

[Greg_L]

Ooo! I could not possibly spam that! Look at my posts top right.

Dave.

Blackstar? Yuck. I really want to like Blackstar amps, but I just don't get along with them at all.

 

[ecc83]

Blackstar? Yuck. I really want to like Blackstar amps, but I just don't get along with them at all.

Oh! I BET you would like the S1 200! Just made for a guy like you! But how's you back?
Have you tried the 5 watter? You are after all going to come at it with preconceptions since it is a "small" amp and a Blackstar to boot!

Dave.

 

[Greg_L]

Oh! I BET you would like the S1 200! Just made for a guy like you! But how's you back?
Have you tried the 5 watter? You are after all going to come at it with preconceptions since it is a "small" amp and a Blackstar to boot!

Dave.

I have not tried a 200w Blackstar. Is that yall's answer to the Major? That's a lot of amp. Lol. My back is strong like bull.

I have tried several various Blackstar models, though I don't know them all by name. I really do want to like them. I just don't. Like the Venue and Series One 50 and 100w heads and cabs. I just recently played through a Club 50 full stack. Not impressed. I've tried the HT stuff and 5w combos. Not a fan. Blackstar always has this blanket of generic low mid muck over the sound to my ears. I notice this kind of mucky sound with other budget-to-mid-range tube amps as well, like Jet City, Bugera, Egnater, and B-52. I don't understand enough of the inner workings of a tube amp to be able to describe why I hear it that way. That's just how I hear it. I hear it when i play it, and when others use those amps. Maybe it's cheaper components, asian build? I have no idea. But the more budget conscious tube amps pretty much all have that kind of sound to me. Just cheap generic tube amp sound. It's still better than sims and modelers though.

 

[ecc83]

I have not tried a 200w Blackstar. Is that yall's answer to the Major? That's a lot of amp. Lol. My back is strong like bull.

I have tried several various Blackstar models, though I don't know them all by name. I really do want to like them. I just don't. Like the Venue and Series One 50 and 100w heads and cabs. I just recently played through a Club 50 full stack. Not impressed. I've tried the HT stuff and 5w combos. Not a fan. Blackstar always has this blanket of generic low mid muck over the sound to my ears. I notice this kind of mucky sound with other budget-to-mid-range tube amps as well, like Jet City, Bugera, Egnater, and B-52. I don't understand enough of the inner workings of a tube amp to be able to describe why I hear it that way. That's just how I hear it. I hear it when i play it, and when others use those amps. Maybe it's cheaper components, asian build? I have no idea. But the more budget conscious tube amps pretty much all have that kind of sound to me. Just cheap generic tube amp sound. It's still better than sims and modelers though.

Ah! Well you have just listed at least two amps that get quite a good rep over here. The Jet City and the Egnater.
I can assure you the components are first class! Not Audiophool because the amps do not sell in that price range but mostly because claims for certain capacitors and resistors are virtually complete bollocks. So long as they are rated for the job, they all "sound" the same. If failure rate is an indication of quality then the amplifiers are top notch!

But, I do agree with you Greg that the amps have a certain "house" sound and others have commented on this and also dislike it (we Limeys call it the "Marmite" Effect) . It probably comes about because only one or two pairs of ears actually decide when the voicing is "right" and he/they cannot be all things to all men!

But next time you get across a Blacky try an EQ pedal in the FX loop? The HT range are said in particular to benefit from 6-10dB boost at around 2-3kHz.

Dave.

 

[Greg_L]

Ah! Well you have just listed at least two amps that get quite a good rep over here. The Jet City and the Egnater.
I can assure you the components are first class! Not Audiophool because the amps do not sell in that price range but mostly because claims for certain capacitors and resistors are virtually complete bollocks. So long as they are rated for the job, they all "sound" the same. If failure rate is an indication of quality then the amplifiers are top notch!

But, I do agree with you Greg that the amps have a certain "house" sound and others have commented on this and also dislike it (we Limeys call it the "Marmite" Effect) . It probably comes about because only one or two pairs of ears actually decide when the voicing is "right" and he/they cannot be all things to all men!

I agree that components are probably way over-valued for tonal considerations. People go nuts for Sozo caps, and Orange Drops, and Piher resistors and shit like that. "Oh dude, you gotta put NOS Mustards in that thing!" Yeah right STFU. But what is it then? Transformers? Tube specs? What makes certain mid-level maps have this generic murky sound, while others don't? Maybe it's just my ears, or maybe it's normal and the amps I like are the freaks. I just hear this blanket generic sound across many makes and models of mid-level, and even some high rep tube amps. I don't think it's a British/American thing. I think it may be a generic cheap build thing. Maybe I'm just more tuned in to amps that have their own unique style and voice. You know, Fenders sound like Fenders. Marshalls sound like Marshalls. Mesas sound like Mesas, etc. They're not trying to be anything else. They're just themselves. A lot of these other amps are trying to fit into a category. Maybe that's where they get their kind of generic nondescript sound.

But next time you get across a Blacky try an EQ pedal in the FX loop? The HT range are said in particular to benefit from 6-10dB boost at around 2-3kHz.

Dave.

That makes sense because that would cover up the murky darkness I hear in the voicing of those amps. But it also goes against my own personal belief that it's the wrong amp for me if I need to do tricks to get it to sound right.

 

[ecc83]

Ok Greg, well I think we have come to a very amicable conclusion, you just don't like'em!
And that is how things should be! I have no problem with guys that have given stuff a fair go. The people that get me down are those that give an amp (any amp) 5 minutes in a gig break, tired, 1/2 pissed and then forever call it ***t!

Rock on,
Dave.

 

[Greg_L]

Ok Greg, well I think we have come to a very amicable conclusion, you just don't like'em!
And that is how things should be! I have no problem with guys that have given stuff a fair go. The people that get me down are those that give an amp (any amp) 5 minutes in a gig break, tired, 1/2 pissed and then forever call it ***t!

Rock on,
Dave.

Haha, yeah I feel I've given them a fair enough shot for me. I'm not trying to talk anyone else out of using them or anything. Just for me, they're not the answer.

I've heard good sounds from them in professional settings. Like, James Williamson of The Stooges uses them right now. He gets a nice raw and nasty sound out of them. I think Ron Asheton's raw and nasty Marshall sound was better though.