practical use of limiters

[Greg_L]

im not quite understanding why id need to use a limiter, and in the event that i do need to use it, im not sure about how to go about doing it. ive done a handful of (what i think) are pretty decent recordings for a newb, and i havent used a limiter at all. but i see it there, and its perplexing me. i think i understand its basic purpose, but i cant figure out when, why, or how id need it. in my quest to try to figure it out on my own, i have turned all of its knobs and pushed its buttons only to be rewarded with my sound going to shit no matter how i use it. so, if someone or many of you could give me some examples of when, why, and how to use it, id really appreciate it. im not looking to use it just because i can, but i do want to understand the ins-ands-outs of practical limiting.

 

[NYMorningstar]

Limiters are used in mastering more than in mixing because they are used solely to enable the sound to be louder. They reduce the peaks giving room to raise the average volume. Use a limiter when you want to increase the volume without affecting the sound. With a fast attack and a fast controlled release time you can increase the volume several db while the limiting is transparent to your ear. Use a compressor or expander when you need more punch or rhythmic movement.

If you are getting away without using a limiter then I'd say stick to it and don't get caught up in the volume wars. If your material is not full of alot of peak info then I'd say chuck the limiter . definitely don't get into the RMS portion of the music and have your wav looking like this:

 

[Greg_L]

lol. thanks. thats one hell of a fat waveform.

so does a limiter cut off peaks, or does it squash them down like half of a compressor or what? when i do play with the limiter, my stuff sounds 'choppy'. i have yet to mess with it and have anything sound good. like i said, i dont patricularly want to use it, and just being 'loud' isnt one of my personal goals, but i do want to understand how to use it.

 

[dementedchord]

$.02

well i'm afraid i disagree with morningstar on this... in fact i've never used a limiter as he's discribed... first off it's necessary to understand compression... so for our viewing audience... when the level rises to a point called the threshold (which is adjustable) then for every increase of say 10db on the input we would see say 5db of increase on the output this would be an example of a ratio of 2-1 a ratio of 3-1 would ofcourse show us an out put of alittle better than 3db... make sense??? now remember how we said the threshold was adjustable... imagine setting it so as to only affect the extremely high input.... and a ratio of greater than 10-1 that's a limiter... the use of it is primarily to prevent you from distorting the extreme when say the guitarist said yeah that's my volume... but it wasn't... so the limiter will save your ass when your trying to get it in as hot as possible..... make sense???

 

[Greg_L]

well i'm afraid i disagree with morningstar on this... in fact i've never used a limiter as he's discribed... first off it's necessary to understand compression... so for our viewing audience... when the level rises to a point called the threshold (which is adjustable) then for every increase of say 10db on the input we would see say 5db of increase on the output this would be an example of a ratio of 2-1 a ratio of 3-1 would ofcourse show us an out put of alittle better than 3db... make sense??? now remember how we said the threshold was adjustable... imagine setting it so as to only affect the extremely high input.... and a ratio of greater than 10-1 that's a limiter... the use of it is primarily to prevent you from distorting the extreme when say the guitarist said yeah that's my volume... but it wasn't... so the limiter will save your ass when your trying to get it in as hot as possible..... make sense???

yes, sort of. so a limiter is just an aggressive compressor? if it is, then whats really the point? i understand that transient spikes happen, but shouldnt volume issues like that be taken care of during the tracking phase?

 

[gecko zzed]

Ideally, you would like to set your tracking levels so that they can cope with the dynamic range of the source material. In this case, a limiter would be unnecessary.

There are a couple of things you want to guard against: unexpected musical transients, and unexpected non-musical transients. An example of the first is a drummer hitting a cymbal way louder than anything you had set up for, and an example of the second is a drummer accidentally hitting the mike with his stick.

In the case of the second, you would most likely just redo the recording. However, you can't do this with live mixing. Limiters are invaluable when live mixing in protecting the downstream gear from nasty noises and other spikey things leaping onto the signal path.

When tracking, I don't use limiting, but I tend to have some compression to control the wayward peaks. Most often, though, I just re-record if there are problems.

 

[NYMorningstar]

well i'm afraid i disagree with morningstar on this... in fact i've never used a limiter as he's discribed... first off it's necessary to understand compression... so for our viewing audience... when the level rises to a point called the threshold (which is adjustable) then for every increase of say 10db on the input we would see say 5db of increase on the output this would be an example of a ratio of 2-1 a ratio of 3-1 would ofcourse show us an out put of alittle better than 3db... make sense??? now remember how we said the threshold was adjustable... imagine setting it so as to only affect the extremely high input.... and a ratio of greater than 10-1 that's a limiter... the use of it is primarily to prevent you from distorting the extreme when say the guitarist said yeah that's my volume... but it wasn't... so the limiter will save your ass when your trying to get it in as hot as possible..... make sense???

Not sure what you disagree with but you need to be real careful when using a compressor/limiter while tracking because it colors the sound for one and if you kill the sound there you can never get it back. If your tracking in 24bit you have plenty of headroom and don't necessarily need it. If your tracking to tape you can run into speed issues when tracking fast transients like drums. If you want to use it for effects, go for it. Some guys track or mix with a few compressors in-line to flatten instruments or vocals.

 

[XLR]

in my quest to try to figure it out on my own, i have turned all of its knobs and pushed its buttons only to be rewarded with my sound going to shit no matter how i use it

What limiter did you use?

Different limiters have very different sounds. In hardware, an FMR RNLA and Alesis Microlimiter sound nothing alike. Software limiters like the Waves L2 and Ozone's limiter have completely different characters. Generally, IME limiters add a type of thickness to the sound, a feeling of greater density, but in a cleaner way than compressors.

Setting the threshold is a very delicate thing. A tiny turn of the threshold knob can drastically change the sound. Watching the gain reduction meter is really helpful. With a decent limiter if you keep the gain reduction at peaks to 3 or 4 dB, and have no gain reduction happening the rest of the time, you'll be using the limiter effectively and fairly transparently.

Some limiters are pretty invisible sonically and if used carefully can control peaks without that audible squashing sound other limiters get. Some limiters cast a veil over the sound just by being in the chain, even when they're not doing gain reduction and then go downhill from there.

Here's a VST plugin with great graphics for understanding the process and the difference between limiting and compression.

Tim

 

[Greg_L]

What limiter did you use?

Different limiters have very different sounds. In hardware, an FMR RNLA and Alesis Microlimiter sound nothing alike. Software limiters like the Waves L2 and Ozone's limiter have completely different characters. Generally, IME limiters add a type of thickness to the sound, a feeling of greater density, but in a cleaner way than compressors.

Setting the threshold is a very delicate thing. A tiny turn of the threshold knob can drastically change the sound. Watching the gain reduction meter is really helpful. With a decent limiter if you keep the gain reduction at peaks to 3 or 4 dB, and have no gain reduction happening the rest of the time, you'll be using the limiter effectively and fairly transparently.

Some limiters are pretty invisible sonically and if used carefully can control peaks without that audible squashing sound other limiters get. Some limiters cast a veil over the sound just by being in the chain, even when they're not doing gain reduction and then go downhill from there.

Here's a VST plugin with great graphics for understanding the process and the difference between limiting and compression.

Tim

well im just playing with the stock limiter that comes with cubase le. i see that i can sort of set a volume ceiling with the limiter and raise everything underneath it, but it just doesnt sound good at all. ill play with that plug-in. thanks for the tip.

 

[XLR]

That PeakCompressor, though a good learning tool because of the easy to understand graphics, isn't especially great sounding. But it sounds better than the Cubase limiter, to my ear.

A freeware limiter that does sound good is Blockfish by Digitalfishphones. But it's got no metering for its limiter section - just has to be set by ear.

Tim

 

[Greg_L]

thanks tim.

 

[dementedchord]

$.02

for clarification i meant i dont like to use limiters for mastering.. i refuse to take part in the volume wars... also as to it's artifacts in tracking of course i dont like them actually i get pissed if i needed it there at all...