Powerful hooks that overshadow the song

[grimtraveller]

There isn't one. You either got it or you don't.

I disagree with this to some extent. I think the benefit of hindsight can show many similar traits in hooks and I think there have been writers that took a more contrived approach.
But I'd rather die twice over than write that way. Or any particular prescribed way, for that matter.

 

[rpm61]

There isn't one. You either got it or you don't.

Exactly, if you love it you'll keep doing it until you spit out something you like. I tried writing a long time ago following the "steps" or "rules" from a book, it sounded like boring pre-fab pretense you get from big name stars when they get lazy. I'll never look for advice on it again, it's bad enough that I've got thee templates of "what a song is" engraved in my brain from years of radio listening.

 

[grimtraveller]

Exactly, if you love it you'll keep doing it until you spit out something you like. I tried writing a long time ago following the "steps" or "rules" from a book, it sounded like boring pre-fab pretense you get from big name stars when they get lazy. I'll never look for advice on it again, it's bad enough that I've got these templates of "what a song is" engraved in my brain from years of radio listening.

By agreeing that 'you either got it or you don't' but acknowledging that there are steps and rules, you're sort of contradicting yourself, because you tacitly accept that what the lazy big stars did worked even though you didn't like it.
That all said, I'm not interested in whatever methodology there may be in writing hooks.

 

[rpm61]

By agreeing that 'you either got it or you don't' but acknowledging that there are steps and rules, you're sort of contradicting yourself, because you tacitly accept that what the lazy big stars did worked even though you didn't like it.
That all said, I'm not interested in whatever methodology there may be in writing hooks.

You misunderstood me, I meant that I tried following steps and rules outlined in a book I bought on songwriting, I didn't like the results of that approach. What the stars did worked, IMO, because they were stars already, but I didn't like it. Of course, there are many songs I don't like that are immensely popular. I could be all wrong, maybe they worked hard on the song but because it sounded unimaginative and uninspired to me I assumed they were just cranking the money machine.

Anyway, that's what I meant, there are many sources offering steps to writing a good song, I tried it once and I don't buy it either.

 

[citizen77]

I've got this insatiable desire to understand why and how everything works, how it connects and how to communicate those ideas in the most efficient manner. It's not supposed to be a cheap way of writing out a formulaic hit song. I can't stand those songs!

Almost all classical musicians start out learning how to compose. They have great teachers and books or methods. Yes, at first they are all copies of other musicians work and it is very formulaic; but it gives them the tools and foundation to start creating with their own voice. As it's said, you must know the rules before you can break them. There are some jazz or blues guys who say that they never want to learn to read because it will inhibit their creative process into a set of rules. I feel that it takes a huge amount of time to learn all the rules - and not just learn them, but really have them engrained. After that, it's easy to break the rules, understand why one breaks the rules and use all that knowledge to communicate better. Learning the theoretical rules of hook writing is just a tool - and one that should be broken. That is how music keeps progressing and evolving into something more (and keeps it personal for yourself).

And isn't that the point, to communicate your emotions through music? Keep on creating music that you love to play, not music that should be good because you are obeying "theoretical rules." If people don't like your music, that's OK. Keep on doing it until you keep attracting the ones that do.

I've always found it's very exhausting being a musician in a group/ensemble/pit that I am not invested in or music that I don't necessarily enjoy the most. I'll do it to pay the bills or because the money is great, but I also know I have a limited/set amount of time I will be emotionally investing into the project.

I hope that clears up why I like learning the theory of hooks (or anything for that matter).

Sorry Greg and Jimmy... I don't agree with the "you got it or you don't" argument. The reason is people who "got it" have been working on "getting it" for years. You know my arguments for that: Malcolm Gladwell's "Outliers" and Daniel Coyle's "The Talent Code." But, if you have any eternal data to back up your claims (not opinion), I'd really like to hear it. (and I used to believe what you do, but changed my mind throughout the years through - these two books are just easy to get for the general public).

 

[citizen77]

It either works for you, or it works for others. In the end, who really cares...If you like it, then it is good for you.

Seriously, I don't really get the discussion of how you write. It should come from personal experience and shiz. Whatever happens happens because it is what you decide is working for the song.

It seems that is the declining factor in music. Individuals trying to make something 'be' like something else by giving it the label of 'chorus/hook' just takes away from just writing a good friggen song...

Write something that moves you. If someone else takes it personally, then you have done something that is special to them. Nothing more really. Enjoy the moment either way.

I totally agree with these parts.

Who is this Barry guy everyone always trashes?

 

[Greg_L]

Sorry Greg and Jimmy... I don't agree with the "you got it or you don't" argument.

I genuinely could not give less a fuck if anyone agrees with me or not. All of these opinions flying around are all dumb anyway. Too many people take their shit way too seriously.

 

[Greg_L]

I totally agree with these parts.

Who is this Barry guy everyone always trashes?

Probably you.

 

[JimmyS1969]

I've got this insatiable desire to understand why and how everything works, how it connects and how to communicate those ideas in the most efficient manner. It's not supposed to be a cheap way of writing out a formulaic hit song. I can't stand those songs!

Almost all classical musicians start out learning how to compose. They have great teachers and books or methods. Yes, at first they are all copies of other musicians work and it is very formulaic; but it gives them the tools and foundation to start creating with their own voice. As it's said, you must know the rules before you can break them. There are some jazz or blues guys who say that they never want to learn to read because it will inhibit their creative process into a set of rules. I feel that it takes a huge amount of time to learn all the rules - and not just learn them, but really have them engrained. After that, it's easy to break the rules, understand why one breaks the rules and use all that knowledge to communicate better. Learning the theoretical rules of hook writing is just a tool - and one that should be broken. That is how music keeps progressing and evolving into something more (and keeps it personal for yourself).

And isn't that the point, to communicate your emotions through music? Keep on creating music that you love to play, not music that should be good because you are obeying "theoretical rules." If people don't like your music, that's OK. Keep on doing it until you keep attracting the ones that do.

I've always found it's very exhausting being a musician in a group/ensemble/pit that I am not invested in or music that I don't necessarily enjoy the most. I'll do it to pay the bills or because the money is great, but I also know I have a limited/set amount of time I will be emotionally investing into the project.

I hope that clears up why I like learning the theory of hooks (or anything for that matter).

Sorry Greg and Jimmy... I don't agree with the "you got it or you don't" argument. The reason is people who "got it" have been working on "getting it" for years. You know my arguments for that: Malcolm Gladwell's "Outliers" and Daniel Coyle's "The Talent Code." But, if you have any eternal data to back up your claims (not opinion), I'd really like to hear it. (and I used to believe what you do, but changed my mind throughout the years through - these two books are just easy to get for the general public).

No offense to that, nor the learning of how to write a song. My point is more about the fact that some musicians just 'have it'. It is not for me to figure out how they got there, but so many in my experience-no matter how hard they try-just don't have 'it'.

That is not to say that the personal satisfaction of writing and creating music is not a wonderful thing. Just saying that the ones who don't 'try' are typically the ones who create something unique that changes the ideal of what music is. Following formulas just sounds scripted to me.

I in no way am condemning listening and or learning from what has been done before. That would be friggen stupid. The point is that some naturally find a way to make a song work. Whatever education or life that gave that to them could be considered education of sort.

The point is not that it is not impossible for anyone to write a great song. It is just that some do it much better than I do. I suck at song writing myself. I sure know when I hear someone who has 'IT'.

 

[citizen77]

I genuinely could not give less a fuck if anyone agrees with me or not. All of these opinions flying around are all dumb anyway. Too many people take their shit way too seriously.

Yeah, I'm a serious guy. I do like it when people agree with me, not to serve some self-fullfiling ego trip, but to make sure that I am passing around correct information. And I want to be shown if I've got my information wrong. I'd hate to lead someone in the wrong direction with something that is blatantly false. Opinions are great though and you've got a lot of good things to say. Those ideas that work for someone can help other people out with something they may have never tried before. But all this is true because I am very serious about my career and craft. Sorry if it rubs you the wrong way.

 

[JimmyS1969]

Yeah, I'm a serious guy. I do like it when people agree with me, not to serve some self-fullfiling ego trip, but to make sure that I am passing around correct information. And I want to be shown if I've got my information wrong. I'd hate to lead someone in the wrong direction with something that is blatantly false. Opinions are great though and you've got a lot of good things to say. Those ideas that work for someone can help other people out with something they may have never tried before. But all this is true because I am very serious about my career and craft. Sorry if it rubs you the wrong way.

Whoa, you take shiz the wrong way man. Way to personal. Music is for each individual to decide on what they like. If someone disagrees with you, then let it go. Don't argue your point with another doods opinion.

Don't take internet opinions so personally man. It is just script on a monitor.

 

[NZK]

I'm writing a song at present where the verse melody is catchier (at least to my ears) than the chorus melody. I had decided I'd flip it and swap them around so the chorus is more hooky but then decided 'nah f*#k it, why cant the verses be the hook?' - makes for a change of musical scenery...
I do like a meaty chorus hook though, especially simple repeating one liners like Cypress Hill's hooks.
Another style of hook I like is like the one in Lou Reed's 'Walk on the Wild Side' (the bassline is actually the most powerful hook in that song) whereby the hook simply a line at the end of each stanza/verse .

 

[citizen77]

No offense to that, nor the learning of how to write a song. My point is more about the fact that some musicians just 'have it'. It is not for me to figure out how they got there, but so many in my experience-no matter how hard they try-just don't have 'it'.

The point is not that it is not impossible for anyone to write a great song. It is just that some do it much better than I do. I suck at song writing myself. I sure know when I hear someone who has 'IT'.

I think my desire to give or at least see potential in people to be the best they can be is the reason why I think they can attain the "it" status with enough work and dedication. Now, if someone have a physical (or mental) disability, it might be harder to achieve "it-ness."

Mozart wrote 20 mediocre (even crappy) symphonies before he started writing something worth listening too. Yes, he was a child genius on the violin and he did have the "it" factor going on for him, but I think that was through the influence of his domineering father.
Mendelssohn wrote his first 12 string symphonies which were also mediocre.
Monet purchased and destroyed all his early paintings he could get so people wouldn't see his progress as an artist.

I choose these giants of composers/artists just because it's easy to see their progress to stardom.

With all these "It" songwriters today, do we have any early stuff from them to see their progress? For me, I throughly enjoy understanding how a person developed into who they came to be. I know that's not what you are like, and probably find it completely boring. It's almost a sociological study for me, but with the purpose of passing on information to help others. (this is not for everyone, we all have different interests that we develop into talents).

 

[citizen77]

Whoa, you take shiz the wrong way man. Way to personal. Music is for each individual to decide on what they like. If someone disagrees with you, then let it go. Don't argue your point with another doods opinion.

Don't take internet opinions so personally man. It is just script on a monitor.

You're totally right. Sorry if I came off that way. I really enjoy discussing these things though. And you guys have a lot of great things to say.

 

[citizen77]

I'm writing a song at present where the verse melody is catchier (at least to my ears) than the chorus melody. I had decided I'd flip it and swap them around so the chorus is more hooky but then decided 'nah f*#k it, why cant the verses be the hook?' - makes for a change of musical scenery...
I do like a meaty chorus hook though, especially simple repeating one liners like Cypress Hill's hooks.
Another style of hook I like is like the one in Lou Reed's 'Walk on the Wild Side' (the bassline is actually the most powerful hook in that song) whereby the hook simply a line at the end of each stanza/verse .

You know.... that's a great idea. What if you added another instrumental melody to the chorus or some other catchy riff or line to it? That's an idea worth exploring.

 

[Greg_L]

Yeah, I'm a serious guy. I do like it when people agree with me, not to serve some self-fullfiling ego trip, but to make sure that I am passing around correct information. And I want to be shown if I've got my information wrong. I'd hate to lead someone in the wrong direction with something that is blatantly false. Opinions are great though and you've got a lot of good things to say. Those ideas that work for someone can help other people out with something they may have never tried before. But all this is true because I am very serious about my career and craft. Sorry if it rubs you the wrong way.

It doesn't. It's my own fault. I have a bad habit of entering discussions when I really don't care about what anyone else has to say.

 

[citizen77]

It doesn't. It's my own fault. I have a bad habit of entering discussions when I really don't care about what anyone else has to say.

That is such a foreign idea to me... so strange.

 

[Greg_L]

That is such a foreign idea to me... so strange.

You should try it some time. Believe in yourself. Think about it - we're all just nobodies on the internet, right? Just using you and me as an example: I don't know you, don't know anything about you, haven't heard your music, recordings, playing, etc. You're just words on a screen, right? You could be some dumb kid in his mom's basement for all I know. Or you could be Elton John or something. I don't know. So why should I care what you think or say? You haven't proven to me that I should listen to or respect your opinion, so I don't. That doesn't make you a bad guy, I just won't be swayed by or consider anything you say as anything more than words on a screen.

 

[citizen77]

I'm really easy to find. Than again, I could be the mom with some dumb kid in my basement.

 

[Greg_L]

I'm really easy to find. Than again, I could be the mom with some dumb kid in my basement.

Are you a mom?