Possible Mic Modification Kits

[Marik]

Tim,

I guess I know whom are you talking about.
There are some more things to think about. First of all, time spent for research, experiments, recordings and comparisons, frustrations, etc. costs money, doesn't it? The ideas about the most efficient ways of modification, I regard as an intellectual property of experimenter, and the reason we (including me) post the results on different forums, and anybody can use this information for their own (and only their own) uses, does not mean that if we start selling kits, "know-how" should not be included into the cost. Look at the price of Royer's kit. I won't tell you the cost of all parts.

I had, in fact, the very same idea of making kit for mods. The main problems, as I saw it, were:
1) You cannot make much money on 3 caps and an inch of lams, unless you sell a lot of those.
2) Since you make less money on each kit, you should advertise it to sell in larger quantities to make it more or less profitable, and it is again, costs money.
3) You cannot advertise it on these forums, as it would be considered as a spam. Heck!!! I cannot say a word here to offer my services modding, building, or repairing mics, otherwise folks from "spam police" will come and immediately "arrest" you.
It is interesting, on "Labs" forum guys sell their kits all the time with no problem, as long as it serves the community. But I guess the nature of that forum is to support DIY. It is like, for example, I never go to 'starbucks' or 'pf-chang', but always support local coffeshops and restaurants.

BTW, related question. Finally, I got all equipment, including presision milling machine, etc. and right now am thinking of doing ribbon mic kits. It might be:
1) Complete hardware for self-assembling, including ribbon corrugation and instalation. In addition, you will need to get transformer and body.
2) Same as above, but with transformer and body included.
3) Pre-assembled capsule, with ribbon installed and tuned. Transformer and body are not included.
4) Same as above, but transformer and body included for your assembling.
5) Fully assembled.
You can paint the body, as well as galvanize, anodize, or use as it is. Otherwise, it probably would make already more sense to sell it through distributors.

I would appreciate any insights on this, including which one looks the best option, and thoughts about the price.

 

[Marik]

For those who interested, here is the pic of generic Chinese trafos. On the left for tube mics (taken off Nady 1050), in the middle--for solid states (off MXL2001), on the right--coil from dissesembled SS, and below its lamination.

 

[Innovations]

Well if the failure rate is near zero then go with my previous comments. If you include good instructions and can sell it for at least three times your component costs and at that price is has a 2x payoff in the sound of the mic then you have a sellable product in my mind.

 

[Innovations]

Tim,

BTW, related question. Finally, I got all equipment, including presision milling machine, etc. and right now am thinking of doing ribbon mic kits. It might be:
1) Complete hardware for self-assembling, including ribbon corrugation and instalation. In addition, you will need to get transformer and body.
2) Same as above, but with transformer and body included.
3) Pre-assembled capsule, with ribbon installed and tuned. Transformer and body are not included.
4) Same as above, but transformer and body included for your assembling.
5) Fully assembled.
You can paint the body, as well as galvanize, anodize, or use as it is. Otherwise, it probably would make already more sense to sell it through distributors.

I would appreciate any insights on this, including which one looks the best option, and thoughts about the price.

Well, it comes down to a couple of considerations:

First of all, what level would give a novice hobbyist that near-zero chance of failure when presented with very clear directions. Support calls are expensive. That is why you want very clear directions.

Seond, I am presuming that if you do not provide the body and transformer then the idea is to market the kit as an 'upgrade kit' from an existing very commonplace mic. The decision is then a simple one, how much less will the upgrade kit cost compared to the salvage value of the mic. In other words what does a used MXL 2001 go for on ebay? If the upgrade kit does not save at least that much then I am better getting the full kit and ebaying the mic.

Then, does the finished product represent a savings or a sound improvement over, say, getting an Oktava ML52?

 

[crazydoc]

Well, it comes down to a couple of considerations:

First of all, what level would give a novice hobbyist that near-zero chance of failure when presented with very clear directions. Support calls are expensive. That is why you want very clear directions.

I think ribbon mics are a whole different animal from what I've read (I've never had my hands on one). Unless there are about 20 ribbons in the kit, I think it's very unlikely most hobbyists would be able to install one without practicing on several. They are fragilissimo.

What equipment would be necessary to tune it - maybe a frequency generator and a scope? If so, that would be beyond most folks capabilities.

The transformers are expensive - one in a kit would probably be most cost effective for the buyer.

I think for most of us, Marik's options 4 and 5 are the only practical ones, and for those he's pretty much done all the work, so will be essentially the cost of a ribbon mic.

Seond, I am presuming that if you do not provide the body and transformer then the idea is to market the kit as an 'upgrade kit' from an existing very commonplace mic. The decision is then a simple one, how much less will the upgrade kit cost compared to the salvage value of the mic. In other words what does a used MXL 2001 go for on ebay? If the upgrade kit does not save at least that much then I am better getting the full kit and ebaying the mic.

I think you're confusing the two types of mics here, and I don't think he's proposing an upgrade, but a new ribbon mic kit.

Then, does the finished product represent a savings or a sound improvement over, say, getting an Oktava ML52?

I assume it will be a sound improvement, and probably will cost more too.

Marik - I think in general too much can go wrong by selling a kit for ribbon mics, and you'd spend way too much time holding peoples hands and replacing screwed up parts to make it worthwhile financially. There are certainly some folks capable of building the kit in options 1,2,and 3, but the headaches from those less capable who are doing it to save money would be overwhelming, unless, of couse, you made it clear that no tech support would be available. You could always make a FAQ webpage to help folks through it.

That's just my somewhat ignorant take on it.

 

[Innovations]

I think ribbon mics are a whole different animal from what I've read (I've never had my hands on one). Unless there are about 20 ribbons in the kit, I think it's very unlikely most hobbyists would be able to install one without practicing on several. They are fragilissimo.

What equipment would be necessary to tune it - maybe a frequency generator and a scope? If so, that would be beyond most folks capabilities.

agreed, particularly those looking for kits.

I think you're confusing the two types of mics here, and I don't think he's proposing an upgrade, but a new ribbon mic kit.

No I know the difference between the two types of mics. It is just that several of the proposed options do not include the transformer and body. So under those options where does one get the body and transformer from? It is not like those things are optional or stuff that you have just sitting around. The logical presumption was that they were to be salvaged from the a that you are doing the upgrade kit from.

 

[DJL]

this kit would only be for transformer coupled mics, which are by far in the minority of cheap Chines mics

Yeah, very few have a transformer.

 

[crazydoc]

No I know the difference between the two types of mics. It is just that several of the proposed options do not include the transformer and body. So under those options where does one get the body and transformer from? It is not like those things are optional or stuff that you have just sitting around. The logical presumption was that they were to be salvaged from the a that you are doing the upgrade kit from.

I think we need to clarify that this thread is now discussing two completely different, unrelated kits.

One is Flatpicker's mod to an existing Chinese condenser with transformer coupled output. This is the 3 cap/transformer laminations mod, that is fairly easy and cheap to do.

The second kit is one proposed by Marik, which as I understand it is a build-from-scratch ribbon mic kit. The reason he proposes different versions is to accommodate various skill and knowledge levels that different builders would possess. Some people can install and tune the ribbon. A few folks would already have the transformer available, and might want to build the mic body themselves. I don't know about the possibility of physically matching the body/grille of an old mic one might have on hand to the ribbon components - things might not fit.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Innovations]

I think we need to clarify that this thread is now discussing two completely different, unrelated kits.

One is Flatpicker's mod to an existing Chinese condenser with transformer coupled output. This is the 3 cap/transformer laminations mod, that is fairly easy and cheap to do.

The second kit is one proposed by Marik, which as I understand it is a build-from-scratch ribbon mic kit. The reason he proposes different versions is to accommodate various skill and knowledge levels that different builders would possess. Some people can install and tune the ribbon. A few folks would already have the transformer available, and might want to build the mic body themselves. I don't know about the possibility of physically matching the body/grille of an old mic one might have on hand to the ribbon components - things might not fit.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

I know, and I think I have them right. Options 1 and 3 of Marik's proposed ribbon kit do not include the transformer and body. Now it seems to me that the only reason a hobbyist is going to have a mic body around is if it came from another mic. A good sounding mic body is not something you are going to slap together from parts at radio shack or home depot. I guess you could go to an electronics store and get the right transformer, but you could do the same for much of the other components too. Why just the transformer? I am guessing it is because they are presuming that you will use one from another mic...most likely the one you are stealing the body from too. Could the capsule and other compenents for a ribbon fit into, say, the body of a MXL? Dunno, maybe.

 

[crazydoc]

I know, and I think I have them right. Options 1 and 3 of Marik's proposed ribbon kit do not include the transformer and body. Now it seems to me that the only reason a hobbyist is going to have a mic body around is if it came from another mic. A good sounding mic body is not something you are going to slap together from parts at radio shack or home depot.

Some DIYers have lathes and milling machines, and actually make their own mic bodies/grilles. I don't know that you could fit the magnet and transformer into an existing condenser type body - the internal partitioning might make that difficult. I think Marik would plan on making the bodies for his kit himself.

I guess you could go to an electronics store and get the right transformer, but you could do the same for much of the other components too. Why just the transformer? I am guessing it is because they are presuming that you will use one from another mic...most likely the one you are stealing the body from too. Could the capsule and other compenents for a ribbon fit into, say, the body of a MXL? Dunno, maybe.

You won't find the transformer in electronics stores - they are a specialty item. The transformer from a condenser is completely inappropriate for use in a ribbon mic, which has to match the extremely low impedance of the ribbon (an ohm or less) to something that a preamp can handle (50 or more ohms). They are also very expensive ($50 to $100 or lots more).

Here's one - priced on their website at $228:

http://www.jensen-transformers.com/as/as067.pdf

Here are some links on making or re-ribboning a mic, so you can appreciate the difficulties involved.

http://www.lkmusic.co.nz/ribbonfix.htm
http://make_a_ribbon_mic.tripod.com/

Maybe Marik can give his opinions, and correct me if I'm wrong on any of this.

 

[Marik]

Tim,

Sorry, I did not mean to invade this thread and please, if anybody has thoughts about Flatpicker's idea, contribute, as well.


Thank you Gentlemen for excellent points. They are refreshing, as I always think this way: "If I can do it, anybody could"...

>Then, does the finished product represent a savings or a sound improvement over, say, getting an Oktava ML52?<

Innovations,

To be honest, if we were talking about Oktava ML52 level of quality (which BTW is a fine mic for what it is, concidering its price), I would not even think of doing it. I am talking about finest quality ribbon mic, with high (for the ribbon) output, and excellent HF response. The ribbon itself is made out of a 0.6um aluminum foil, magnets are very strong and efficient Neodymiums, transformer is the highest quality Lundahl LL2911, gold plated brass ribbon clapms. All geometry of the capsule is designed for optimal frequency response vs. efficiency, and minimal diffractions. Currently I am working on building a prototype, and then I will be testing it against RCA 44 and 77, as well as Royer, and Coles 4038, if I can find the last.

The reason for not including trafo is that LL2911 can be ordered directly from Kevin Carter, US distributor of Lundahl transformers. They are pretty expensive ($58.00), and unless I get them in quantities, there is no reason for me to pay shipping, and then include it into the final cost. Also, I thought there are a lot of DIY oriented folks who, as Crazydoc has noticed, owns (or has an access) to milling machines and lathes, and could make they own mic bodies. Hmm, I did not think I will need to make plans for bodies, as well. The only cheap commercial mic as a body donor, I could think of, is MXL990, with its longer grill construction. I have no problems machining the bodies, but it will definitely increase the cost.

>What equipment would be necessary to tune it - maybe a frequency generator and a scope? If so, that would be beyond most folks capabilities.<

Well, the ribbon tuning is very similar to a measure of speaker resonance frequency. You will need a resistor, signal generator, preamp, and DMM. Not very hard, if you have all these.
Yep, the "failure rate" is very important to think about. It will probably be much easier for me to assemble the capsule, than to deal with torn or mistuned ribbons. On the other hand, it is hard to screw-up transformer connection, unless you are really 'talented', or don't have any soldering experience.

Gentlemen, please keep your ideas coming.

 

[Flatpicker]

Tim,
Sorry, I did not mean to invade this thread and please, if anybody has thoughts about Flatpicker's idea, contribute, as well.

Not a problem, my friend. This is as good a place to talk about ribbon kits as any.

Gentlemen, please keep your ideas coming.

Wanna hear my idea? I think that since you're considering this much work, you should just build the mic from ground up and sell the completed product yourself, or design it so that it can be mass produced, pitch it to a distributor and see what happens. You could end up with some big royalty checks!

One thing's for sure, you sure know your stuff about ribbon mics. If you ever get bit by the marketing bug, Mr. Dooley needs to watch out!

 

[OneRoomStudios]

Just out of curiosity, how much do you think you could sell one of your completed ribbon mics for (not including painting or anodizing or anything like that)?

 

[WithoutREason]

just to steer this i lil back on topic, i would definately like one of your the MXL mod kits.