Possible Mic Modification Kits

[Flatpicker]

A friend was asking me the other day if it would be worth his time and effort to put together and sell up-grade kits for various MXL and other Chinese made condensers.

He has discovered that the transformer coupled mics can be greatly improved by replacing the cheapie metal laminations on the transformer with a high quality lamination material. Turns out, this isn’t too difficult for the do-it-yourselfer and is worth the effort since it’s way easier and cheaper than replacing the transformers (New ones are $50 and up and they’re not drop-in replacements so you’d have to rig them in there somehow).

The kits would also include other parts like caps and transistors, along with detailed instructions on performing the mods. He could also possibly post “before” and “after” clips of the mods using various mics so you could hear them before you buy.

I told him I didn’t have a clue as to how much he should charge, but afterwards I figured why not ask you guys since some of you seem to be interested in this.

So, what would kits like this be worth?

 

[OneRoomStudios]

I'd definitely be interested in something like that, but your friend should keep in mind that it wouldn't be too hard for the average DIYer to find all the parts themselves or ask someone where to get them. So basically he would just be selling the directions (which can usually be found for free online) and the convenience of one single package. I don't know how much people would pay for that, but probably not a whole lot more than the cost of the parts themselves. He might make some money by buying the parts in bulk and reselling them in the kits at retail, but other than that I don't know how much people would be willing to pay...especially when the mics themselves are cheap. But in any case, if the price were right, I would definitely be interested in one of the kits.

 

[Innovations]

I disagree, a really good set of instructions is a definite value-add, plus the assurance that these are the right parts for the job and the mod has been known to work.

Here is how to price it.

1. Find your lowest price source for the components, including how you plan on packaging them for shipping. The instructions can be photocopied and stapled, as long as they are good and clear, ideally with step-by step diagrams or pictures. Make sure the kit is complete. You can require that the customer have a soldering iron and solder, but that is about it.

2. Triple the cost from step 1. That should be your retail price. Add ground shipping.

3. If the cost from step 2 is less than about half the improvement then you have a sellable product. For example the MXL 2003 currently sells online for about $150 with shockmount. If your $25 (price from step 2) DIY kit will make it sound as good as a $200 mic with shockmount. (say an AKG C2000B) then I would say you have a sellable product.

 

[crazydoc]

I'd definitely be interested in something like that, but your friend should keep in mind that it wouldn't be too hard for the average DIYer to find all the parts themselves or ask someone where to get them. So basically he would just be selling the directions (which can usually be found for free online) and the convenience of one single package. I don't know how much people would pay for that, but probably not a whole lot more than the cost of the parts themselves. He might make some money by buying the parts in bulk and reselling them in the kits at retail, but other than that I don't know how much people would be willing to pay...especially when the mics themselves are cheap. But in any case, if the price were right, I would definitely be interested in one of the kits.

I'd have to disagree with several of your points. I think it would be difficult to impossible to get the transformer laminations oneself in small quantities, so there really is no other option if you want to redo the transformer.

The parts themselves, including the laminations, should come to under $5.00, so it would be pointless to sell them for cost - the hassle factor is just too great. He's got to order them, pay for shipping to him, put them in packages, make DIY instructions and ship them out. The hassle per unit would go down the more units he could sell, in a reasonably short time. The price would depend on how much he values his time and knowledge, versus how valuable the upgrade is to the customer.

I myself would order several, as I've never rebuilt a transformer before and this sounds like a good way to learn. I'd certainly be willing to pay $15 + shippng, figuring your friend would make $10 on each unit he sold. That would be $1000 for a hundred if interest were great enough, which wouldn't be bad for probably less than a day's work.

 

[Innovations]

I'd have to disagree with several of your points. I think it would be difficult to impossible to get the transformer laminations oneself in small quantities, so there really is no other option if you want to redo the transformer.

The parts themselves, including the laminations, should come to under $5.00, so it would be pointless to sell them for cost - the hassle factor is just too great. He's got to order them, pay for shipping to him, put them in packages, make DIY instructions and ship them out. The hassle per unit would go down the more units he could sell, in a reasonably short time. The price would depend on how much he values his time and knowledge, versus how valuable the upgrade is to the customer.

I myself would order several, as I've never rebuilt a transformer before and this sounds like a good way to learn. I'd certainly be willing to pay $15 + shippng, figuring your friend would make $10 on each unit he sold. That would be $1000 for a hundred if interest were great enough, which wouldn't be bad for probably less than a day's work.

well, that fits with my rule of thumb of tripling the materials cost. Actually another factor that would have to be worked in is how would he market and accept payment for these? He could go the ebay/paypal route, or use one of the several small merchant sites like bizcentral or Yahoo stores. He will need to package and mail the kits, etc.

Fortunately where to sell them would be relatively straightforward. Get the word out through discussion boards and offer free kits to reviewers (don't just send them the kit until they have said that they will use it and review it. Otherwise it might end up on the botton of a drawer forever).

 

[Flatpicker]

The transformer laminations are sold by weight and are $100 min order. This kit would be for transformer coupled mics like the V67G and the 2001. BTW, these mods do not turn a $150 mic into a 200$ mic - more like a $150 mic into a $600 - $1000 mic.

Before you start with all the "No way"s, I know of one high-end, big-name tube mic that uses a Chinese 6 micron capsule and list for $3K and another company with one that list for nearly $2K.

Basically that's what's happening here - taking a decent body and capsule, and tweaking up the electronics to where they should have been in the first place. The circuit designs are good, but obtaining good components requires selecting them and you're just not going to get that in a $150 mic.

 

[DJL]

A friend was asking me the other day if it would be worth his time and effort to put together and sell up-grade kits for various MXL and other Chinese made condensers.

He has discovered that the transformer coupled mics can be greatly improved by replacing the cheapie metal laminations on the transformer with a high quality lamination material. Turns out, this isn’t too difficult for the do-it-yourselfer and is worth the effort since it’s way easier and cheaper than replacing the transformers (New ones are $50 and up and they’re not drop-in replacements so you’d have to rig them in there somehow).

The kits would also include other parts like caps and transistors, along with detailed instructions on performing the mods. He could also possibly post “before” and “after” clips of the mods using various mics so you could hear them before you buy.

I told him I didn’t have a clue as to how much he should charge, but afterwards I figured why not ask you guys since some of you seem to be interested in this.

So, what would kits like this be worth?

Yes, no, maybe. For example... when I first started reading this I was excited... untill I got to the "they’re not drop-in replacements so you’d have to rig them in there somehow" part and that turned me off... if he could make the kits so they were easy to install and no "rigging"... I think he would sell more kits. That's my two cents. Other than that... yes, way cool.

Oh, and I'm not sure what a kit like that would be worth... depends on what mic it's for and etc... and how well people like it.

 

[ausrock]

Tim,

I'm with you on this and know where it's coming from.......

It would be worthwhile determining which mics are using the same transformer and making a comprehensive list before this goes too far..........there is a plethora of brands out there that may benefit from these improvements.

The other thing to consider is whether the manufacturers have made changes to components for any individual model of mic during the course of it's lifetime which may affect the suitability of these mods.

Chris

 

[crazydoc]

The transformer laminations are sold by weight and are $100 min order.

Which would be enough to do about 60 mics = $1.70 per mic. Besides the capacitors, what other components were you thinking of replacing? I wouldn't think there would be much point in replacing the FET unless you were going to test and select them individually - then you're talking about wastage of rejected components and a more labor-intensive process with higher cost.

I think you would get a significant and most cost-effective upgrade just by replacing those few caps and the laminations.

Yes, no, maybe. For example... when I first started reading this I was excited... untill I got to the "they?re not drop-in replacements so you?d have to rig them in there somehow" part and that turned me off... if he could make the kits so they were easy to install and no "rigging"...

I think he meant that replacement transformers would have to be made to fit somehow. The replacement laminations in the kit would be the same size as the originals - just a better metal. Of course this requires disasssembling the transformer, so it's not going to be a piece of cake anyway. That's why it's a DIY project.

 

[ausrock]

QUOTE.................."Of course this requires disasssembling the transformer, so it's not going to be a piece of cake anyway. That's why it's a DIY project."


And that will make it "DIY, not for the faint hearted".............I hate to think of how many mics may be ruined by novice DIY'ers who attempt this mod.

 

[OneRoomStudios]

Yeah....I'm going to have to go with "I don't know what I was thinking." I guess I thought the laminations were availible in smaller quantities. I was also thinking that the price point would be higher. For $15 ~ 25 I would still be interested in something like that. Although it would have to have some killer diagrams and instructions to go along with it.

 

[Flatpicker]

It would be worthwhile determining which mics are using the same transformer and making a comprehensive list before this goes too far..........there is a plethora of brands out there that may benefit from these improvements.

That depends entirely on the mics the seller (not me, btw) has modified and wants to sell kits for. Of course, if someone wants to apply the kit to another mic that may be similar, that's entirely up to them.

 

[DJL]

Most people who have cheap Chinese budget mics only have a few mics… sometimes only the one mic. They can’t afford to make a mistake trying to do a mod… so if they wanted another mic color it would be safer for them to just buy another mic rather than risk trashing a mic. But if the kit was easy to install… he might sell a lot of kits, depending on how the mod’s sound and the cost of the kits. If a mic only cost say $80... the kit would have to be pretty cheap… cheaper than any new budget mics anyway. Of course there will always be those who just like DIY that might buy the kits. So, I guess the question is… how many kits does he want to sell… a few, or a whole bunch?

 

[Flatpicker]

...I wouldn't think there would be much point in replacing the FET unless you were going to test and select them individually - then you're talking about wastage of rejected components and a more labor-intensive process with higher cost...

Well, there's other factors too. It is inevitable that the producer of these kits is going to get calls and emails like "Ever since I did your mod my mic doesn't work..." or "...has this horrible hum..." etc... Then he either has to be kind of a jerk and say "Too bad, so sad" or he has to spend time learning about the problem and then explaining to them what they did to cause the hum, etc...

So, what pays for that time?

Incidentally, this is the very reason I never tried to do this kind of thing myself. Seems like you always have to charge so much extra to compensate for the headaches some people cause that it becomes too expensive.

Royer or rather Mojave Audio is a good example of this. They used to sell just the pc boards for the Royer tube mod/power supply for the MXL2001 and then suddenly stopped. Someone ask them why and they replied something like they got tired of people who couldn’t solder accusing them of selling defective boards.

I think he meant that replacement transformers would have to be made to fit somehow. The replacement laminations in the kit would be the same size as the originals - just a better metal. Of course this requires disassembling the transformer...

Right. I haven't tried this yet, but I've heard it's not that hard to do. Removing parts off the board without damaging it is going to be the hard part.

 

[Flatpicker]

…so if they wanted another mic color it would be safer for them to just buy another mic...
...So, I guess the question is… how many kits does he want to sell… a few, or a whole bunch?

Modifications like this are not going to necessarily “change” the mic’s color. They will, however, move the mic from a flat 2-dimensional sound to a bigger, more open, real 3-D sound.

If it were me, I'd price them so it wouldn't matter how many I sold. Just guessing, but he probably feels the same.

 

[crazydoc]

Well, there's other factors too. It is inevitable that the producer of these kits is going to get calls and emails like "Ever since I did your mod my mic doesn't work..." or "...has this horrible hum..." etc... Then he either has to be kind of a jerk and say "Too bad, so sad" or he has to spend time learning about the problem and then explaining to them what they did to cause the hum, etc...

Aye, there's the rub. I think the only way to do this is to make it clear at the outset that this is a parts only kit, that instructions are included only as a recommendation on how to do the mod, that there is no guarantee or tech support included, and that the buyer assumes any risk for damage to his mic from the mod. Once the kit's in the mail, the sellers responsibility ends. Otherwise it's a never ending headache.

This would be the only way to sell them at a reasonable price, and still keep his sanity.

Most people who have cheap Chinese budget mics only have a few mics? sometimes only the one mic. They can?t afford to make a mistake trying to do a mod?

I may be wrong, but probably many people here have a number of mics, most of them cheap Chinese ones. If they could get a significant upgrade to one of them for a cheap price, they might be willing to risk ruining one. Again, as it stands, this kit would only be for transformer coupled mics, which are by far in the minority of cheap Chines mics, so I'm not sure how significant the demand would be. The only mics that come to mind are the MXL's - 2001 and V67.

If a mic only cost say $80... the kit would have to be pretty cheap? cheaper than any new budget mics anyway.

I agree - especially without any guarantee that the buyer is even capable of doing the mod, that the modded mic will be better, or even work.

 

[Flatpicker]

...This would be the only way to sell them at a reasonable price, and still keep his sanity...

Sooooooo true!

 

[Innovations]

Yeah, I misread what you were saying as well. In the other thread you were talking about replacing a couple of capacitors to improve the sound of the MXL 2003. I presumed that this was just a kit version of that. If instead we are talking about something involving much more skill and much more risk of destroying the mic the numbers change a bit.

How long does this upgrade take to perform? What would be the failure rate of a skilled user doing the upgrade? Maybe the better route would be to go more the Mojave Audio route and sell upgraded boards, mail-in upgrades, and pre-upgraded microphones.

 

[crazydoc]

How long does this upgrade take to perform? What would be the failure rate of a skilled user doing the upgrade?

Assuming you are a competent solderer, and can follow simple directions and are not a complete klutz, it shouldn't take more than a couple of hours. It involves taking the circuit end of the mic apart (15 seconds), unscrewing the circuit boards (a few minutes), desoldering and replacing a few capacitors (a few minutes to a half hour), taking out the transformer (a few minutes), removing the old laminations and installing the new ones (up to an hour or so), and reinstalling the transformer and pc boards (15 minutes).

Attached is a pic of the transformer in the MXL V67, and a disassembled transformer (not a mic transformer). The mic transformer may be easier or more difficult to work with, depending on the type of laminations and how they are interleaved.

I think even a competent, not skilled, person should have a failure rate approaching zero for this, as long as he takes notes as to what hooks to where.

 

[Flatpicker]

I think even a competent, not skilled, person should have a failure rate approaching zero for this, as long as he takes notes as to what hooks to where.

Yep. You just slide the new lams in, wrap some special tape around it (should be included in the kit) and you're done. NO ROCKET SCIENCE REQUIRED.