POLL: How to charge clients

[Freddy]

I think the idea of what constitutes a "contract" is getting in the way here.

Now, I am not in this business, but I do make a living by selling my time. In my experience, it is Very Good Idea (tm) for both sides to have a crystal-clear understanding of what you are providing and what they are buying - up-front.

It makes it easier for you, and it makes them more comfortable (to say nothing of the fact that discussing this stuff up front makes potentially difficult misunderstandings much less likely).

Better still, it really works to have this written down. I recently had my guitar worked on (twist in the neck/refretting/set-up) and I was given a receipt for the guitar, a price and a description of what work would be done. Did I appreciate that? Yes, I certainly did. It reduced my anxiety at handing over my baby to a stranger.

Once you have it written down, you have the basics of a contract - an offer to sell and acceptance of that offer. Signing it just makes everyone more comfortable.

I order something on the web and tick the box to accept the Ts and Cs. I sign a credit card slip or enter a PIN. Guess what, I have a contract with the seller.

In my business we call it having clear terms of reference. The process of agreeing what will be delivered and paid for helps. And, should anything go wrong, it helps a lot - but mostly it makes it less likely that will happen.

 

[Cult_Status02]

Profile them. Some call it being an asshole, some call it prejudice, I call it safe. If they look shady, act accordingly, get a down payment if needed.

I usually do block scheduling. I tell them is x amount of money for x amount of hours, or this much an hour. It is more to purchase just an hour, so I encourage block recording. So I may have a group come in and I tell them it's so much for 5 hours, and I'd like it up front, if there is a problem part-way through we can work out a refund, but I will never refund 100% if they have walked in the door to record.

In worst-case scenarios, I have a contract I can print out. Unfortunately, many people that come in are about 16 years-old, thus their signature is no good, I believe, unless accompanied by a guardian and sign by a gaurdian. But I do have a contract in-case a client wants one.

 

[bigtoe]

Bigtoe,

I can see where you're coming from on this. I really do. The type of people you work with and the mode of doing business is very much on the casual side, and that's how you choose to do business. It would be kind of an awkward transition for you to suddenly pull out a document when you're trying to keep things casual and laid back.

But there is another side to this that you might be overlooking. If you plan on one day working with real musicians, then you're going to have to have some sort of documentation. I'm not saying you'll ever get to the point where you're actually working a real project with real musicians ... but if you do, keep in mind that real, working musicians will ask for and demand some sort of documentation / receipt that they will then use for tax purposes.

Keep in mind that everything a working musician pays for is a tax writeoff, and if they come to you to work on a real project ... it will be a very awkward moment for you when they ask for a receipt or contract, and you scribble something on a napkin. If you want to be "that guy," then go ahead.

But I'm telling you, they will have a perception of you as being less professional, and might go in to the recording session with less confidence ... if and when that ever transpires.

.

first off a receipt is not a contract. i give receipts to all my clients...most of them throw them away before they leave.

now chess- i dig you but i should tell ya i come from a real musician family. my 'rents are both professional musicians...and not of the 50 buck a night club variety though there is nothing wrong with that... so i know what it's like. i know that world.

i've also worked with professional musicians signed to sizable rock labels... no contract.

if there is a contractual thing - you sure as shit aren't laying it out after the fact or during the fact in that world...the jobs i have been a part of where there probably was a contract between some parties (label work, radio broadcasts, orchestral recordings, etc...) certainly wasn't shoved on someone while the recording was going on...you want to talk about unprofessional? hand someone a contract while taking half their money. if that's SOP in some areas well i certainly don't hang there and wouldn't either.

i'm certainly not taking offense to your comments and i don't mind at all. i've just been there...and a contract doesn't make you look more professional when it's used for day to day shit. to me, it makes you look like a hick trying to play uptown, no offense to anyone.

now i have never been misinperpreted as being less professional because i don't use contracts...i get gigs based on my somewhat reasonable interpretation of the musicians sound, professional behavior on the job and the fact that i am easy to deal with. that is way more important to the musicians. if a musician came to me and wanted me to sign their contract to ensure they get delivery- hey man no sweat let me look at it...

i've said enough as well...not sure how i fell for being roped into some nerdbait. you caught me on a slow week at work...i'm betting the same for some of you...i respect your opinions and your idea of professional standards...live it how you want...contract or no contract i'm taking off early today.

MIke

 

[ahuimanu]

I ask for payment in drugs, hookers and booze as we go along.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

first off a receipt is not a contract.

Mike, you keep getting hung up on the word "contract" and connecting it to this mental image you have of somewhere between a long "party of the first part heretoby whereas" legalese thing and a big long concert rider. That's not what we are talking about at all. Please listen to this example of one way of how what we're trying to describe works:

A musician or a band calls and books time in the studio. The studio guy and the artist discuss just what the artist wants done: Is it raw tracking, is it cracking and mixing, etc? Are they buying a block of time or is it an hourly gig until the project is done, etc? Do they expect a delivered product in the form of a CD premaster, does that get passed to the client or to an off-site ME, etc.? And so on. A normal conversation setting the proper expectations between you and your client. The client is given a verbal quote or estimate based upon the conditions of the gig (an hourly charge or a package rate or whatever) and told that, say, half down is expected in advance. You with me so far? Pretty normal phone conversation, right? (At least I hope so )

So the day of the gig, the artist comes in. You have a piece of paper in the form of a bill of sale/quote/work order - whatever you want to call it - that itemizes the studio time bought and work to be done, the estimated (or exact, depending upon the gig circumstances) total cost, the amount of down payment and the balance. Somewhere on that form - at the bottom, on the back, wherever - may be a small paragraph indicating terms of service and any warranties or lack thereof. Even that, while recommended, is optional. It may not even be there. That's fine.

So far what we have is no different than what would be generated at virtually *any other place of business in the world*, from a dry cleaner to a painting contractor. All of which, BTW, musicians pro and amateur alike do business with with no problems at all. Real musicians are quite normal people; just look at your parents, I'm sure they are quite normal and deal with this kind of form everywhere they go without issue.

The artist pays the downpayment. The studio owner indicates that the downpayment has been made and the payment type (cash, credit, check, etc.). The artist signs on the bottom, takes his yellow copy as the receipt and they go and record either the next platinum album or the next stinker for the MP3 clinic .

That simple business form, when taken to court by either the studio dude or the artist*, is for all intents and purposes *a legal contract*, and will be viewed as such and nothing less by the presiding judge. All it is to you and me is a bill of sale. In court, especially with the signature (but I'm not quite sure that is even always necessary, acceptance of the terms in the form of giving the downpayment might even be enough, I'm not sure; I'll take the signature any day of the week just to make sure), that simple little bill of sale is indeed a contract to do business.

That's no mountain. There's no big deal to it, nothing hard or even out of the ordinary. That's simple, commonplace and common sense small business procedure, nothing more. Not to mention necessary paperwork if you are actually running a real business where you actualy need to file taxes and maybe even pay an assistant and such. Nothing nerdy or hotsy-totsy about it that *anyone*, even the most eccentric musician, should get put-off by.

*And it covers both your and your client's ass, should a dispute come up. Remember, lawsuits can cut both ways. It's fine for you to say that if a deadbeat client stiffs you for a couple of hundred, just shake it off and move on (which I SO do not agree with, but thats an old argument already), but what happens when it cuts the other way? What happens when you get an asshole client that takes YOU to court, claiming that you didn't do your whole or proper job as promised? What are you going to have to show Judge Judy that your now ex-client must have a needle hanging out of their arm because you never promised what they claim you did?

Just because it has not happened to you yet doesn't mean it won't in the future, just as just because I have not had an accident or ticket in the last 20 years of driving my car doesn't mean I won't in the future.

And just because you're dealing with musicians doesn't mean - or at least shouldn't mean - that you have clients that get turned off because you keep proper paperwork. If that is actually the case, I gotta tell you, you have some really strange or bent clients who must not ever spend money anywhere else in their life for any other products or services either.

And you know what? Yeah, running a business is intrinsically a bit nerdy. Even a drug kingpin or a nightclub owner or a band manager has an accountant and bookkeeping (several sets, probably ) and employee payroll and and all that to worry about. Nerdy stuff. Deal with it.

G.

 

[bigtoe]

Glen -

Drop it. You're off base, i don't need the 1000 word talking to a retard post and it's starting to get kinda annoying.

My books are legit. My business is legit. My clients are legit. Your words are not. I understand you - i don't agree with you. Dig?

Thanks.

Mike

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Glen -

Drop it. You're off base, i don't need the 1000 word talking to a retard post and it's starting to get kinda annoying.

My books are legit. My business is legit. My clients are legit. Your words are not. I understand you - i don't agree with you. Dig?

Thanks.

Mike

Suit yourself .

G.

 

[mrT]

Glen -

Drop it. You're off base, i don't need the 1000 word talking to a retard post and it's starting to get kinda annoying.

My books are legit. My business is legit. My clients are legit. Your words are not. I understand you - i don't agree with you. Dig?

Thanks.

Mike

Honestly man. Your just setting yourself up for something bad. I've never met a person who was put off by agreeing to terms before recording. I see what you mean but you are entrusting your livelyhood to the honesty and integrity of those you record. Not a good position to be in if things don't work out. Glen's just talking about having your bases covered. If you like to wing it and hope nobody gets hurt then it's certainly a free country. Just don't tell other people that having a written agreement is a bad idea. It isn't. It's a very good idea that can keep you from being fucked.

 

[LeeRosario]

always upfront.

At least half of the total cost. It shows a commitment on thier part. Then the other portion at the end of the session.

And how they pay you shows you the level of respect they have for you. So if they pay you with rice and beans over a legit check, thats how much they respect you.


No cash, no masters.

 

[killmachine]

I always like to get a deposit after the first 8 hour tracking session. The one time I didn't I spent 10 hrs recording drums and the band broke up the day before they were supposed to come back...... so if nothing else I got the experience of recording a "my first drumset" drumset which sounded like total ass = a waste of 10 hrs I could have been downloading more porn

 

[crosstudio]

funny, when i was still trying to make music a living rather than a loosely profitable hobby, i was less stringent in getting my money up front. i talked about it but really only applied it to people i didn't know.

now that its more of a hobby, i'm actually more particular about it. i'm not booking you unless you give me at least the first two hours worth of money up front. I've got better things to do than to wait for no shows.

 

[jmxdrummer]

I ask for 50% before recording and the other 50% once Im done

 

[Adam P]

This thread has been a pretty interesting read, in terms of the varied viewpoints and whatnot. I think that, in terms of advice for Nick himself since he started the thread, that advising him to seek out contracts with his clients is a bit much, considering that he (and his clientele, most likely) is a minor and can't enter into a legally binding contract until he's 18 (and his clients are too). I'm also going to make a few assumptions and guess that he does his recording in a house or some other piece of real property owned by somebody else (I've been to his Myspace page...looks like a house to me), that wherever he does his recordings probably isn't commercially zoned, that he probably doesn't have a license to do business and consequently doesn't declare his income for tax purposes, that he hasn't had his recording area properly inspected and isn't insured against potential liability should something happen to a client. If all of this is indeed the case, I would think that a contract to ensure he gets paid a sum that probably wouldn't make it out of small claims court is probably low on his list if he desires to do legitimate (by which I mean the legality of it, not the quality of the work he does) business and not just record as a hobbyist.

Furthermore, you don't need to have anything in writing to have a legally valid contract. If you can demonstrate that the client offered to employ your services and you accepted his offer, and there was some sort of consideration for his offer (the fact that by scheduling time to work with him potentially turned away other customers would probably be sufficient), then you have a legally enforceable agreement. If the case made it so far as to go to trial, which would be ridiculous anyways for the sums of money we're likely talking about, the judge or jury would have to base the terms of the contract on what the intent of you and your client were, which shouldn't be tough to ascertain in a situation like this..."he hired me to record his music and present him with the master copies upon payment". Sounds pretty simple. And even if they found that there wasn't a contract you could probably force payment by estopping your client from refusing payment based on reliance, if you can show that it was reasonable that your client's offer to hire you for X amount of days reasonably caused you to potentially turn away other clients who might've wanted to hire you to work on those same days.

Lastly, I'll just refer to these guys as evidence that you can be successful as a recording engineer without signing contracts.

Personally, if I ever take my hobby to the next step (meaning commercial), I'd likely insist on payment at the end of each day, or at the end of the session before the masters are turned over if the band has booked a particular amount of time and has a certified check or money order or other form of guaranteed payment that would cover the entire time booked.

 

[TerraMortim]

with murder... nyuck nyuck nyuck.

 

[generalchaos316]

Yowza...2 year old post...not that is isn't particularly relevant still...

 

[notredamer0789]

I ask for 50% before recording and the other 50% once Im done

This is the way to go ESPECIALLY when they come to you. I want to know that I'm not wasting my time out here SOOO... i ask for a deposit. This usually is half or a set amount agreed by the members of the band and myself. And as far as HOW I charge... usually I work with bands who KNOW what they are doing.. so we do it by the song. Only b/c it loosens up the tension and you aren't rushed to get ideas out b/c of time. I know my band spent 2 weeks with 14 hour days almost EVERYDAY in the studio.. if we would have gotten charge by the hour... we would NOT have a demo out right now lol..

 

[giraffe]

half up front for package deals, pay as you go for hourly.

only been screwed once in many years, and that was my fault!!!!!!!!!!!

(broke the cardinal rule, NEVER give any thing out until they are paid in full!)

 

[RAMI]

I attach a jumper cable to each nipple and turn the power to full. That gives them a real charge.

 

[TerraMortim]

hahahahahahaha

 

[jmorris]

payment at end of every session unless I know them and they have a good run with me. Charges start at time booked, no free setup. No one gets any material until all accounts are paid. I learnned that the hard way.