Please help me pick one of these monitors

  • Thread starter Thread starter Joe-H
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How I feel on this what to spend thing. I'm 19, and I'm a uni student. Between paying bills and buying food it doesn't leave much over to spend on recording gear. I only really work in the holidays to get some cash to spend on gear.

Anyway, I know I'd get better gear if I saved up for longer. I know it will be easier to get good recordings and mixes if I treat the room. At the end of the day though if I saved up for that I wouldn't have any gear for ages. What about the EXPERIENCE GAINED from at least having some gear to use. I'm mixing using my computer and a Behringer UB-2442FX mixer. I know what many people here think of a lot of Behringer gear, but if I didn't have it the best gear I would be using is my Tascam 4 track. I would much rather record and mix using lower end decent gear than sitting around all year twiddling my thumbs. When I've got the cash I'll get something better, and I'll appreciate the difference, but not be stuck learning something I could have on lower end gear.

Sorry if this is a rant.... Its getting pretty late..
 
guhlenn said:
Middleman; fiar enough. point taken. I read somewhere you use 5" m-audio's and a sub... Wil getting 8" woofers in combination with a sub be a waste of money or is overall sound better too? Those BX-8 look sweet and have been getting good reviews, room tuning and lots of other neat things. But i could save 130,- if i get the BX-5... I could put that money in other stuff (lots on my list so no lack in "things i want")
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The BX8s will be better but they are back ported which means the bass throw is out the back and not toward your ears. Your imaging will be smeared and the Sub would improve this. However, it will be much easier than the BX5s and you should be able to learn the lo end curve over time to compensate. Actually if you put a couple of bass traps in your room the BX8s might tighten up a bit and be fairly accurate.

I know it may be costly but being able to hear down to 50Hz prevents you from leaving excessive bass in a mix. Bass just eats up excessive energy overall and if you can tame it your translation results and mixing time goes down.
 
Hello I'm new to this forum but not new to audio. Though I'm not into recording myself I have had exposure some very very fine equipment some of which blows the big name high end audio systems out of the water so to speak. As a result I started seaking out pro type equipment to make my audio system. Though I see the pro market going south as expectations get lower & lower (more & more people listening to mp3's) at least at the affordable end anyway. At least most of it still has a lot of potential that goes way beyond similarly priced consummer gear.

That brings me to the BX5's. These speakers have many pluses on thier side Like smooth sound at least from 100 cycles up & good dynamics for such a small speaker. They tend toward being slightly midrange foward with good but not great extension on the top. They have a slight peak at 8 KHz then falls about 6 db by the time it reaches 20 KHz. This is largely due the the amps inside. The Amps are well built with huge (for it's power rating) transformer. The power supply caps are adaqate but could have been beefier, however the transformer helps a lot here.

When I received them they had a good tonal balance but you could tell something was missing as there was just absolutely no depth to the sound at all. Some may say this complaint is hogwash that that is how monitors are supposed to sound. After hearing some other monitors myself I have to say that is not really true as both the KRK KR8's & the Event Monitor reference series with the 6.5 inch woofers did display at least some depth though there was other qualities I liked better in the BX5's compared to the Event Monitors. The depth did not improve at all with breakin. I could easily tell there was a lot of potential in them to be found with a little work however as I have done this with many componants before. It's the degree of potential that awaits you that would truelly amaze you.

I went ahead & modified them to my own likes keeping in mind thay the response when done has to be as flat if not even flatter when done (frequency response). the mods cost me only time, solder, wire & a couple of small capacitors. the results were a reach out & touch the performers soundstage & pinpoint depth in the soundfield that even many systems that cost as much as 100,000 dollars or more don't seem to be able to ferrett out of the recordings. (I've heard a few of these sytems myself) $300 & a little time of my own plus some effort of coarse is well worth the bargain to get these results I might add.

By the way it is not just my oppinion as to the improvement others have heard these qualities too. My boss at work heard them a couple of days ago & said the he really got the feeling of being there (note the word there as in at the studio not that the musisions were here in the living room which is usually a result of a dry sounding recording or playback chain but that he felt as if he was there experiencing the acoustics of the studio as well as the instruments) instead of just listening to a recording (granted it takes a really great recording to bring this out in this case it was Pulse on Classic Records 24bit/96KHz DAD played on my modified Panasonic DVD A7 DVD Audio player though a Onkyo Integra p-304 preamp & connected directly to the BX5's, there is not enough difference to reliably tell which is which, the preamp is that good). I also have a modified Sony SCD222ES that does very well too especially with Lizts's Dante's Symphony On Telarc SACD. No flat pancake soundstages here.
 
Sounds like a sales pitch in there somewhere.

Ok, just to test the waters, if your not selling something here, why don't you tell us more about your mod.
 
Middleman said:
Sounds like a sales pitch in there somewhere.

Ok, just to test the waters, if your not selling something here, why don't you tell us more about your mod.
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No it isn't for sale unless one lives close & wants to hear them. & wants to buy a pair of stock ones after hearing them to have modified. I don't sell them myself so you would have go to a store to by them & the mods would be rather inexpensive. Not selling them over net as too many phonies out there. the mods are rather simple though disassembly is somewhat complicated by glued & soldered parts on the pc board to the rear panel.

Most of it means tracing the signal & eliminating various capacitors namely the electrolytics that are in the signal path by removing & puting wire in there place as well as removing some 22pf & 220pf capacitors entirely. I also remove an output resistor-capacitor network as well as bypass the power supply fusses (very important as you would not believe the distortion these cause when they rapidly heat & cool to the signal as the power passes them to the amplifier ,it is very audible, power line fuses are left intact as they cause almost no deterioration.

The reason I eliminate the electrolyitics is because it is a known fact that electrlitics have 5% dielectric absorbsion, in other words they absorb 5% of whatever goes through them signal wise. When they are featered in the negative feedback loop of a high gain amplifier to controll gain they muddy the sound so badly that its worse than stuffing cotton in your ears . Fortunately these are not particularly high gain amps so they don't suffer quite as badly but they do still suffer a lot.

The reason I remove the output network is to eliminate an unnessessary power drain as well as allowing the amp to settle faster after the signal has passed which improves the retrieval of low level detail under all conditions.

One of the 220pf capacitors gets replaced with a 100pf capactor (on the tweeter amp). This levels the high frequency reponse above 8KHz. All others are just removed period for the same reason. the 100 pf cap was chosen to give the max extention without incurring any harshness from the tweeter. Do not remove any similar looking ones from the woofer amp.

With these mods you should be able to hear what I hear if you have a good cd player & preamp. Cheasy stuff may even sound cheasier than before, an example of good would be a meridian CD player or perhaps Marantz $1000 minimum. Don't put your $98 k-mart special on it & expect to comeup smelling roses, it won't, it will sound like the garbage it is (very revealing of the fact that its gargage where a lesser speaker will let you get away with it as it will at least only sound mediocre instead of truly bad).

Please note: that I do not take any responsabily for damage or injury for those who do these mods on there own....
 
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Middleman said:
So did the midrange emphasis go away?
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Very interesting question & a very very interesting answer to that question. The mids are still very there but the other parts exept the deep bass (there was never any of that to begin with but the mid bass is better) are brought up to its level not only in volume but quality. Mid-band quality is also vastly inproved.
 
weird. kinda sounds like the green marker on cd-side story. You''re telling that the m-audio are way better then the ADAMS once you change some capacitors... BEing the advocate of the devil why didn't m-audio figure that out if it is so common knowledge and then sell those mofo's for 10x the price they do now?

Guhlenn
 
Germanium, I'm not sure what your motivation is here, nor do I understand many of the technical details you mention... but as a satisfied BX5 user, I do find your broader evaluation interesting. I've recently noted similar raves for the the little BX5s from several pros who could afford much more, like Ray Charles, Carlos Rios, and BT (in Keyboard mag) who states that this unmodified BX5 surround system, with a BX sub, blows away his colleagues with their own $10K systems. I noted, also, that even in the rather critical review of the BX5s recently offered in SOS mag, the reviewers stated that the BX5's mids and high were exceptionally clear and open; only the low end was not sufficient for providing a professional mix, which they admitted might be solved by the addition of a matching sub. As a stand-alone monitor, though, they found that the BX5 lacked the bass extension needed for mixing.

My own experience roughly matches SOS's--and maybe yours in some ways.
I have a humble little studio, which I just use as a back-up to my recording in local pro studios, but when I AB'd various monitors in my studio, I was struck by the relative clarity and smoothness of the BX5's mids and highs when compared to even larger monitors that I tried. In fact, I liked their presentation of mids/highs so much that I spent several days moving them around and tweaking their EQ switches in an effort to provide enough bass extension to work with them--I really wanted to find a way to keep them because I liked their sound so much, even with the limited bass response.
All in all, I found (and find) their bright-but-smooth clarity so easy to work with, and I prefer it to the darker sound that I found in some competitors' models that I auditioned in my studio. And, in fact, after many hours of changing placement and adding foam pads, I managed to produce a bass end that's punchy and clear enough for my current mixing needs. Now, my recordings are translating to other systems well although I do need to allow carefully for the lowest freqs that I'm not hearing quite well enough.

I decided to keep the BX5s for their mids and highs, even with the limited lows, knowing that I'll probably eventually add the matching sub to round out the sound. Even without the interesting modification you mention, I fully expect that the BX5s--with the sub--will sound as good as, or better than, the other systems I auditioned in that general price range. Your modification might improive things even more, but I suspect that I'll be quite satisfied with just the addition of a sub.

To you or anyone currently using the BX5s *with the matching sub*... I'd be happy to hear your evalution of the sound. Will it be as good as I expect, given my very positive impression of the BX5's mids and highs?

Thanks for sharing your thoughts in such detail.

J.

P.S. No, I have no affiliation whatsoever with M-Audio. I'm just a budget consumer who enjoys spending many hours comparing products before and after purchasing them--and a consumer who relishes finding those occasional good-bang-for-buck products whose lower prices do not necessarily reflect lower quality.
 
Did somebody say BX5s with a sub?

How about SP5Bs with a sub? Same thing prior version.

It kicks major butt.

Very translatable, not as open as the HR824s in the upper midrange but I would put them up against anything in the under $1000 price range. The HR624s sound very similar, slightly tighter in the low end. But for the price these are one of the best values out there. The KRKs were a little stiff sounding and the 624s a little too much money back when I was looking, so these were my choice.

With the sub I can now get those throbbing kick and bass results that are so often a part of modern CDs. They are slightly hot in the mid range for which you may undercompensate, however, once you understand them, this is not a major issue. Very subtle changes to EQ can actually be heard which is always the ticket for me.

I could ooh and aah all day long but will give it a rest. Speakers $299, found the sub used for $280. $580 total investment for an excellent sound.
 
Thanks for the insight, Middle. You're thoughts are right in line with what I've heard and read from some other pro's. It seems that the BX5/sub set-up is a good option for those of us with limited space, slim wallets, and ears with enough experience to hear the difference.

Best,

J.

Just stumbled upon BT's mention of his BX5 set-up, and here it is:
http://www.keyboardmag.com/archive/0104/0104_f2.htm
 
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Yeah, GC sold me the SBX sub for $300 new, and when used with the SP5B's, I have no complaints whatsoever. No they aren't top of the line Genelecs, but they are perfectly adequate for my needs, which are expanding all the time. I've used them for a variety of other purposes in addition. At my release party, I used them as a DJ rig, and ran my Roland right into them. With a guest list of over 100, they worked fine as a small PA. Until I got a decent bass cab, I was running my bass into the sub, using the Avalon or a Behringer bass VAMP Pro as a front end. No problems there , either.-Richie
 
Regarding the mids of the BX's, it might be that, germanium, coming from the comsumer end of things is just not used to the flatter midrange Monitors have compaired to the laidback sound of consumer speakers.
And the reason for M-audio not putting better quality components in their amps is money, I mean where do you stop, better wire, bigger power supply, better drivers, thicker enclosure...

also if you know your going to use a sub, try to get some monitors that are sealed not ported, I know there aren't that many out there, but with ported group delay goes way up(if you going for maxinum flat) which smears bass around the tuning freq. so if you have ported monitors and sub you just added more group delay, thats the reason you see someone like Bluesky selling systems non-ported.
 
The more I learn about this the less I know what i want and need. Can't the ports just be closed? I hope this is not a stupid question, but if it is... Feel free to tell me. I maybe can get a pair of sceond hand mackies at around 1000,- euro. this is a good price considering they go for 1650 to 1850 new here... Better or worse then BX-8 with sub ? though i wouldn't be able to afford the mackie sub for decades LOL...
 
The drivers for ported and sealed have different parameters, so for the most part they won't work so well in a box alignment their not designed for, because people want bass without a big box, ported are more popular.
 
Speaking of the BX8s...I had heard a lot of good things about them on this board and tried them out at GC. They did not have the subwoofer with them, and at that point I didn't know there was an optional subwoofer. The lack of low end completely turned me off to them. I was listening to them and couldn't believe how highly recommended they had been.

But now it all makes sense. The highs and mids were really clear...there was just no low end. I'll have to see if I can find a place to try out the full setup with sub.
 
If you can spend a little more, I just heard the new Precision 8 Events. Wow, they blew down the Mackie HR824s which is saying something. The lacking low end that most nearfields exhibit was completely there.
 
ds21 said:
Regarding the mids of the BX's, it might be that, germanium, coming from the comsumer end of things is just not used to the flatter midrange Monitors have compaired to the laidback sound of consumer speakers.
And the reason for M-audio not putting better quality components in their amps is money, I mean where do you stop, better wire, bigger power supply, better drivers, thicker enclosure.
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It is in truth a midrange & treble boost if you set the acoustic space to -0db. A 4db boost in fact as I looked the circiut over & observed the output. -4db setting is in fact the true flat setting for these speakers. Hence they are from the midband up forward set up that way (0db setting) if not run in 1/8 or 1/4 space.

What I do brings out the inner detail at all frequencies not just the midband. Fron the highest treble to as deep as these speakers will go. It is no secret that the quality of the componants dictate the sound of an amplifier especially capacitors as even though they are passive componants they have reactive properties which very from type to type & from one grade to anouther.I will not use electrolytics in any low level signal tranfer function as it is known to have relatively high losses & I hear those losses very distictly. I direct couple wherever possible as that is the lowest possible loss but use high grade mettalized film (transistor amps) or film-foil (tube amps) where D.C. is present as these have much lower loss than electrolytics (on the order 5/10,000ths)!!! This is not pseudoscience, this is fact.

The fact is what I did would actually save them money as I use fewer parts in the end & have added none & only really changed one capactor to a different type & value (smaller value type not critical in that location). All others have been eliminated (removed intirely or replaced with wire to direct couple). Almost no out of pocket expenses at all.
 
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By the way you cannot use electrolitics as coupling caps in the power & driver stages of a tube amp because they leak excessive current & will cause the bias to shift and burn up the next stage tubes they are driving. Anouther example of one of thier lesser qualities.

Not all mettalized films are created equal either as the Rel Multicaps will do the same thing if used too close to thier voltage rating (250V across a 400v multicap). These were used in a tube amp that I owned a couple years ago & caused me much headache with the biasing of the power tubes until I replaced them with Sprague Orange Drops (film-foils rated at 630 v & tesed with no leakage to 1200 v at factory).
 
EleKtriKaz said:
Speaking of the BX8s...I had heard a lot of good things about them on this board and tried them out at GC. They did not have the subwoofer with them, and at that point I didn't know there was an optional subwoofer. The lack of low end completely turned me off to them. I was listening to them and couldn't believe how highly recommended they had been.

But now it all makes sense. The highs and mids were really clear...there was just no low end. I'll have to see if I can find a place to try out the full setup with sub.
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I heard the BX8's also & felt that they had a softer sound than the BX5's. They had somewhat deeper bass but lacked energy in that spectrum. This made thier bass sound soft & illdefined (kind of rolly polly, somewhat stripped of harmonics that tell you what the instrument is). I probaly shouln't make too much of this however as I only heard them at the local Guitar Center & may not have been heard in the best of circumstances.
 
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