patchbay question (yes, another one)

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FZfile

FZfile

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Hello.
I have searched the forums for"patchbay" and read and read and read but I couldnt find anything about this:

I have recently purchasd an Ultrapatch and(please. no Behringer spewage) was wondering, iI basically understand normaled and half-normaled, and from what i've gleaned from various sources it is suggested that Channel INS/Group OUTS and Processors be gennerally NORMALED and Sound Sources/Directs/ and Effects be OPEN.

My question is.......what is the bennefit of normaling my Composer Pro INS and OUTS???

Wouldn't a compressor be better in an open configuration? and wouldn't normalling the INS and OUTS cause some kind of feedback loop???

O.K. I know that was three questions but I also have another one.........or two......or.....well, I'm full of 'em.

I just went through a flurry of cable rolling and AFTER I made 10 I realised that the Composer, my EQ, my Pre, etc. are BALANCED.
DUH!!!
Of course I went, in my haste and made UNBALANCED patch cables. Needles to say I wasn't too happy.
Can I use these???(either from the gear to the back of the bay OR to patch in the front)????????

Any suggestions.
 
about the cables...

i just ordered a compressor myself, so I can't really address those, but, as far as the cables are concerned....

As soon as you introduce an unbalanced cable into the chain, it unbalances the whole system, or so i've had it explained to me.

So, it'd be better not to use them if you want the whole system to be balanced I suppose...anyone else know if that's right?

***Justin***
 
bummer.

Well I guess that makes sense.
Thanks, Justin.

But now that makes me wonder.......

I like to use my guitar pedals and other assorted junk "on the table" for weird vocal effects and keyboard noise and loops (Mike Patton is my psychotic hero).

One example is I have an old PE20 semi parametric EQ. Its noisy and you get get these horrible sounds out of it. I love it.
But....I was kind of hoping to put it in the patchbay because it has four channels and I like to set up each channel to different(mostly extreme) settings for different vocal effects.
I figured it would be easy to switch from one to another in the bay....and I would like to maybe run different combinations of effect chains quickly, especially for looping which I like to play or sing over in realtime (not overdub) hrough one amp( which I read about in a Trey-from-Phish-interview.)

What is the best and most efficient way of mixing this BALANCED and UNBALANCED crap together.????
I would like my noise to sound good.
-mike
 
About the normalling: normalling implies a connection between two things, an input of one thing and and an output of another thing. That connection will exist unless you interrupt it by plugging in a patch cable.

So normalling is really all about deciding what your default configuration is going to be, and setting that up so that that will happen with no patch cables at all inserted from the front. All the basic connections you need should be made by the normalling in the patchbay.

So let's say, for example, that you have an analog 16-track, and a board with 16 channels, each with a direct out. You'd probably want to normal channel 1's direct out to the tape recorder's track 1 input, and so on up to 16. That way, to track 16 at a time, you'd just pull out all the patch cables on the front side, and the normalling will set it up for you.

Then, let's say your board has 4 submixes. You'd probably leave them open (not normalled to anything). But if you wanted to record submix 3 on track 12, just patch from that output to that tape track input- breaking the normal connection with channel 12's direct out, and replacing it with submix 3.

So how do you use your Composer most of the time? If you usually use it as a pair of mono compressors on (for example) channel inserts, leave it open like an effect. But if you usually use it in stereo across your mix bus, you _might_ want to normal the board's main left and right outs to the composer's channel 1 and 2 inputs, and then normal the channel 1 and 2 outputs to the inputs of your 2-track mixdown machine. So with no patch cables on the front of the bay, it's set up and ready to do mix bus compression.

Or whatever. The bottom line is that you need to set up the normalling so that it makes your life easier for whatever the primary use of your room is going to be- and your use will differ from _my_ use, so your default (normalled) configuration should differ from mine. Normalling, in most cases, deals with connecting the comesoutas on box 1 with the gozintas on box 2.

You don't want to normal any effect's outputs back to its inputs. That's why you typically leave them open (non-normalled) on a patchbay.

The only time you want to have something talking to itself, output-to-input, is when you have something like a channel insert: you want to normal the channel insert send right back into the channel insert return. That way, when nothing is plugged in to break the normal, that insert acts as if there is no plug connected to it at all: the signal just passes right through it and on to the mix busses.

On balanced versus unbalanced: if your cable runs are short, it's probably a nonissue. You'll get 3dB lower levels when you go single-ended, and you might get slightly more noise- but it's probably down in the mud. Your channel inserts are gonna be single-ended anyway, and that's what a good fraction of your patching will be doing, most likely.

So you will _always_ be mixing balanced and unbalanced. This doesn't unbalance the entire system; just the piece that is talking to that part of it. It's obviously preferable to go balanced whereever you can- but you'll find lots of uses for those single-ended cables...
 
DUDE!!!

I mean.....DUDE!

That's completely awsome.

You have given me a firm conceptual center of gravity about the normaling.

Thank you very much.

Now, I guess, just to make sure I understand,........you want to normal connections you dont want to screw very often (probably from or AT the back of the unit) like the monitor outs of my deck to the actual monitors. Then if i want to monitor my mixdown from my 2 track I can patch that from the front into (and to) the monitors, thereby braking the connection from the deck(or board).
Right?

GerrrrrrrrrATE!
-mike:p
 
uuuhhhhhhhhh.....

:rolleyes:
.....I meant....connections you dont want to screw WITH.

.........like gravity.

but I'm sure you could guess that.

Anyway.....
 
I read you loud and clear- and you're exactly right. You normal the control room outs on your board to the monitor power amp ins, and you[re good to go. But you an always _override_ it, and patch other things in to create exceptions- like your cassette deck's outputs to the monitor amp ins, or whatnot.

I currently have a 208-point patchbay in my rig. When I want to track, I walk up to it and pull all the patch cords *out* of the front- and with nary a single "exception" patch in place, it's ready to track live-to-16, monitor the control room outs, aux 1-2 are normalled to the headphone distribution amp, aux3-4 are normalled to one reverb, whose outputs are normalled back on effects return 1 L&R, aux 5-6 are normalled to the _other_ reverb... and on, and on. You get the idea.

Once you know how you're going to use the room, set it up to do it itself! Then when it's time to slap a compressor on the bass, or a limiter on the vox: two patch cables and you're done.
 
Man, skippy, your custom title should be "Mr. Patch". I'm still digesting the knowledge you gave us in the infamous "Patchbay" thread a while back.:D
 
You may want to ask yourself or Behringer if the ultrapatch is a balanced patchbay to begin with. When I bought one it was not.

So if you want any of your signals to get from x to y balanced it aint gonna happen.

Maybe I am wrong though.
 
now ya tell me.

:eek:

Like.......zoinks! I guess I got so psyched to connect the gear I neglected to read the fine print of the ultrapatch manual.

Low and behold.......it is unbalanced.

Now that I have made a bunch of balanced cabels, will it still behoove me to use those for my longer patches (like the line INS and effect sends/returns to my 488)??????????

Also, because the inserts of the 488 are on the front and they need to go to the back of the bay, these patches will be my longest.
But how do you make a balanced Y-cord??????? What do you do with "extra" hot/colds?????

I know thats slightly tangent from the start of the thread but....
I'll search around and maybe I'll stumble across the answer to that very question somewhere.
Thank you. Next piece of gear(better reverb) I will be sure and read ALL of the manual BEFORE I start the ol' soldering station.

-mike
 
No biggie. Like I said, inserts on prosumer home-recording gear are always unbalanced *anyway*. So the answer to "how do I make a balanced Y-cord for an insert" is simply "you _don't_". You make a single-ended Y-cord, and that goes to the back of your single-ended patchbay, and then you can patch in single-ended or balanced I's and O's in whatever combination you choose..

Since in your first post you indicated that you made unbalanced cables *anyway*, you should be in fine shape. But hell-and-damnation, if you'd made _balanced_ cables, you'd _still_ be in fine shape!

Don't stress. For your balanced gear, you can still run through a single-ended (TS) bay with little drama. The cold side (ring) of every output will get shorted to ground. So what? Most modern gear *doesn't care*- and if you have gear that _does_ care, you can handle it opn a case-by-case basis. And the cold side of every input will get shorted to ground. So what? They generally don't care either, and the only real downside is 3dB lower levels and a slightly greater exposure to EMI/RFI, ground loops, and the resulting higher noise floor.

Don't stress about it! You can make lots of wonderful music with a completely single-ended rig. In the ideal world, you'd be balanced everywhere- but there is nothing whatsoever keeping you from building a wonderful rig with what you've got.

Put your skull sweat into making your music, *not* into getting neurotic about the wire. Leave that to nerds like me! If your rig sounds good to you, then just use it in good health...
 
Some more words of wisdom from Skippy! That's a very good point...don't loose sight of the reason for having gear: making music.
 
thanks skip

of course .......you're right, it should be more about making music.

but ...i have a problem.

i want to be a nerd.
well, not really but actually, i took my little project studio apart and kind of reorganized and "organized-for-the-first-time" on a lot of levels.

so in putting it back together, i realized what was a portable setup now doesnt need to be because the people i have been jamming with now have their own little project studios and now i dont need to bring most of my gear to get ideas down.

also, as i get to to know people i want to be able to have them come over an hook their gear up with some knowledge of connections and connectivity.

i am also trying to plan ahead to integrate my in-the-process-of-being-built computer into the set up (which is only a few meg of ram away from a complete-for-now parts list) and an 880ex w/card currently being paid toward.

steppin up.

so if i seem nuerotic about the small stuff..........i am .....becuase i know in the long run it can help, if only a little.

and i appreciate all the info and righteous direction.

thanks again.........til more questions......or maybe even an answer or two
-mike
 
oh yeah.....

how do ya get the cool little icons next to your usernames????

do you have to be part of the "COOL-club" or can any ol' shmooo get one.

yes, shmooo is a real word.......at least as much as smurf was before they were blue.
 
No problem- I'll always lend a hand to any would-be nerd. I'll even loan you my spare plastic pocket protector tokeep that ink off your shirt, and my roll of white tape to hold your glasses together when they break. (;-)

Seriously, though: a lot of people do get hung up enough on the technical side issues (and there are a million of them!) that they start to lose their headway on actually making music. If you've got a good balance there, and you're still wanting to press on further with this nerdy cruft, here are some more good references to research on patching and interconnect:

http://www.rane.com/pdf/note110.pdf

https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?s=&threadid=36209

https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24405

Ahh, schmoos. Or actually, the plural of "schmoo" is "schmoon"... Loved 'em: Al Capp truly rocked, didn't he? I absolutely grew up on "Lil' Abner" and Walt Kelly's "Pogo"... Anyway, to do the avatar thing, look in the profile section of the site. Profile > Edit Options, down at the very bottom... Get enough posts, and you could actually import a schmoo for your avatar! Or a kickmie, for that matter...
 
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you da man, skip

Very cool.
thanks skippy, that link page is a whopper.
theres a lot to digest.

slowly......very small bites........and wash down with plenty of water.....(or music making in this case.)

I appreciate your sound advice once again. (pun! pun! pun!!)

-mike
 
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